Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1959) The Uphill Climb 2 2

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:57 AM, sfcityduck said:

Actually, what you said is: "Oh yeah, Brave and the Bold #28! The other thing that this issue does is find a way to tell a full story... they do it by breaking it down into chapters - the concept of a full story in a comic is still unsure at this point - but its also something they got from Kirby's Challengers who did this a number of times."  WRONG.

And you also said: "The only omission I may have made was not including that Gardner Fox had written full length stories 20 years prior. 20 YEARS prior. ... It is what it is. Comics weren't using it. 20 years is a long time. Jack started doing it again and others followed." WRONG AGAIN.

You literally accused Gardner Fox, the man who wrote the first book length superhero team story, breaking it down into chapters, of doing so because its "something they got from Kirby's Challengers" and "Jack started doing it again and others followed."

Again, you got this backwards and you are too stubborn to admit it. You also tried to claim that DC and/or Kirby was not influenced by DC's standard format for superhero team stories because that was "20 years ago." But despite your many repetitions of that assertion, it is not true. Apparently you were unaware that the adventures of the JSA ran as chaptered stories in All-Star from 1940 to 1951. And when called on the falsity of your "20 years ago" assertion, you fell back on the assertion that seven years "was a long time in the world then."  No. Not really. Most of the folks who worked on JSA were still at DC, including Gardner Fox who wrote BB28!  Certainly, Fox didn't forget the many JSA stories he wrote (guys like Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas were writing him about them before JLA was created!). Again, you are trying too hard. Kirby's reputation doesn't need this kind of "help." Fox was not "influenced" by Kirby to write a book length superhero team story with chapters at all.  He had done them throughout the 1940s for the JSA and he did them again when the JSA was revived as the JLA.

Again, please top trying to give Kirby credit for everything in comics - Kirby doesn't deserve it and it does a disservice to other creators like Gardner Fox who Kirby was influenced by.

 

I have no problem saying Gardner Fox did what he did because he’d done it before. He probably wasn’t influenced to do that because Jack did. 
 

DC may have said, why don’t you do that too… because you used it before, but he most definitely had used it and was well aware of it and most likely the pioneer of it. 
 

But the fact remains. No one WAS doing it anymore. And Jack began to do it with an adventure team and suddenly we started to see it again and it eventually became the norm. 
 

ALSO, the way DC did it was different than Kirby. Many of the DC stories, including even the early JLA broke the chapters up to feature a character or two at once, culminating in a free for all finale. Jack very much liked the whole team dynamic and keeping them together, which also played a part in how things changed - bickering amongst each other - as we saw as far back as Boy Commandos, the Newsboy Legion, the bad guys in Fighting American, Challengers, Race for the Moon and even some in Sky Masters. 

[Mmehdy]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:09 AM, sfcityduck said:

You have this backwards. Challengers of the Unknown was a book length team story with chapters because that was the norm for DC superhero team books from 1940 to 1951 ONLY SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. Whether Kirby chose to emulate the old format or he was told to do it that way I don't know. But, it wasn't a Kirby invention or innovation - it was a pretty normal DC practice.

Again, you are overclaiming Kirby's influence and ignoring everyone else's.

First I agree with this book length type story, first appearing prototype being Early ALl-Stars 3 up and Human Torch #5 which was 60 pages. Even the great All Winners 19 and 21 showed the "novel" approach.  Using the flagship title Superman  and the use of Novel on its comic book cover prior to the August 1961 release date of FF1, the first use was Superman #113May 1957 which used the words 3 Part Novel and it was not till issue#122 in July 1958 that the Novel description was used again and interestingly again in #132 as well as classic Superman #146 ( one of the best superman stories ever illustrated and written) in July 1961 for the use  of novel on the cover.

 The significant change that  led to marvel in August of 1961 to rewrite comic book history and   which was to elevate the medium of the comic book story  to the next level in a  cinematic graphic novel approach must have been both a historical factor of various comic books being released at the time as well as the historical past. There is a real difference or step us in both story and art which television had increased the media savvy of the average American. We just thought differently after TV was in every house and not limited to going to the movie theater and listing to the radio. I think that change of the average persons perspective of life canned in a 30 min or 60 minute program in which hero comes out alive or the problems are resolved  on minute 29/59 is in my opinion  he greatest factor in Marvel's jump. I was recently read Jack Kirbys War and Romance Omnibus( thumbs way up) and what struck me light a lighting bolt as I read it issue by issue as created..when I hit Sgt Fury#1 which was created in 1963 it just blew me away how cinematic and how much the game was raised in 23 pages or so. I then read Sgt #2 and got the exact same feeling reguarding them destroying Hitlers nuclear plant. It was a jolt.

I can confirm in my personal conversations with Bob B that what was reported was accurate and that the tapes do exist. Challengers did and in my opinion also create a blueprint for FF1. However it was the Time 1961 as opposed cover date Feb 1957 for Showcase #6 which made the difference...we had grown up a bit more!

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:50 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

But the fact remains. No one WAS doing it anymore. And Jack began to do it with an adventure team and suddenly we started to see it again and it eventually became the norm. 

Because between 1951 and 1960 there were zero superhero team books in publication.

My surmise is Jack, who worked for DC when Fox was doing JSA and when Leading featured the Seven Soldiers, was copying Fox's format not the other way around. In comics, copying others was normal. S&K did it. Kirby solo did it. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:38 AM, Prince Namor said:

Jack was promoted on the COVER of comics 20 years before the Marvel Silver Age. 

No.  That's wrong. "Sandman by Simon &: Kirby" was promoted on the cover of Adventure 81, 82, and 83.  Must not have helped sales because they stopped doing that for 84 on.

Did I miss something for which "Jack Kirby" got solo promotion?  Or was the three-issue run what you were referring to?

In any event, how does that prove that Kirby got LESS hype over the years than others?

I will say this, I do know of some creators who got cover hype that was more impressive than that for S&K.  From 1948:

Harvey also did cover promo for S&K on Stuntman early on but dropped the practice for S&K by the time Boy's Ranch came out.  Must not have mattered to sales numbers back then. My guess is that Caniff and S&K negotiated the deals they got to include the promo and it was not a publisher driven idea.

Edited September 27, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:54 PM, Prince Namor said:

Never seen those before. Like them!  What month/year and issues did they appear in?

I have to assume that creator names didn't move the GA market much or at all because those type of efforts by publishers were very short lived. Not even S&Ks own mainline tried to promote their comics off of the S&K names. While there were always some comic readers who were fanatical enough to have had favorite creators, it really took the emergence of organized comic fandom to set the stage for creators becoming "stars" to comic readers.

[Prince Namor]

A little bit… not as much as they should…

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:10 PM, sfcityduck said:

Never seen those before. Like them!  What month/year and issues did they appear in?

I have it somewhere - sent them from my phone as I’m in and out of work today. I’ll see what I can find!

[Zonker]

Those S&K house ads are really interesting!   DC was no doubt trying to ride on the coattails of the duo's success with Captain America (without further publicizing the competition at Timely, of course).  But I too am surprised that readers of that time would be aware of the names of the creative talent and motivated to follow them from one comic to another.  S&K did sign their Cap splash pages, so maybe their names stuck.  Supposedly Mayor Laguardia provided S&K with police protection in the months leading up to America's entry into WWII, as the American Nazi Party of the day didn't take kindly to Cap punching Hitler on the cover of his first issue.  Possibly Simon & Kirby were bigger celebrities in the 1940s that we currently assume?  

[shadroch]

On 9/27/2022 at 3:03 PM, Zonker said:

Those S&K house ads are really interesting!   DC was no doubt trying to ride on the coattails of the duo's success with Captain America (without further publicizing the competition at Timely, of course).  But I too am surprised that readers of that time would be aware of the names of the creative talent and motivated to follow them from one comic to another.  S&K did sign their Cap splash pages, so maybe their names stuck.  Supposedly Mayor Laguardia provided S&K with police protection in the months leading up to America's entry into WWII, as the American Nazi Party of the day didn't take kindly to Cap punching Hitler on the cover of his first issue.  Possibly Simon & Kirby were bigger celebrities in the 1940s that we currently assume?  

Kirby and Simon moved to Brown Street in Mineola around 1950. Simon's auto-biography gives the impression the neighbors had no idea they were comic book gods. 

Most of the residents were middle class factory workers, where Joe and Jack worked from home and wore suits. Fifty years later, no one in Mineola had any interest in honoring them so I don't see how they could have been famous when they moved there. Kirby moved almost around the corner a few years later, but the short distance put him in the next town. Simon moved east, upgrading his homes every few years.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

A little bit… not as much as they should…

 

 

Weird. I looked at early Bullseye issues, maybe the first three or four, and didn't see any promo of themselves. A little bit is right. I now see it appeared only on issues 5 (Mainline) and 7 (Charlton) and then the series ended.

[Zonker]

Well, minor celebrities, at best!  And probably short-lived. My sense is people were ready to move on after the war. So, in 1942 it seemed like a good idea for DC to advertise they had hired these guys away from the competition.  But by 1950, it would no doubt have been a case of "Captain Who?"

Just spit-balling here.

[shadroch]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:51 PM, Zonker said:

Well, minor celebrities, at best!  And probably short-lived. My sense is people were ready to move on after the war. So, in 1942 it seemed like a good idea for DC to advertise they had hired these guys away from the competition.  But by 1950, it would no doubt have been a case of "Captain Who?"

Just spit-balling here.

The ad looks a bit cut and paste to me, as well as a bit rushed. Maybe a fill in at the deadline? Does anyone think the guys in the picture are Kirby and Simon?

[M.10rda]

On 9/24/2022 at 7:36 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1959

From Journey Into Mystery #57 - Jack Kirby did the cover (MR. Ayers inks) as well as a 5 page story, and art with MR. Ayers doing inks. He also does the splash page for the lead (cover) story for Don Heck. 

 

 

Just thought I'd mention... this is the Marvel character "The Gargoyle", who debuted (ostensibly) in the 80s as a member of the Defenders and is usually credited as a creation of J.M. DeMatteis and Don Perlin... same design... right down to the color scheme... and the dude on the right even refers to him as a "gargoyle":

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/gargoyle/4005-7114/

In service of nothing much except to underline in one more small way how Marvel Comics are - in a myriad of manners, conscious & unconscious, attributed & unattributed - the House That Jack Built. 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by M.10rda