Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #86 - Stan hadn't signed the previous Thor stories, so how to explain his involvement? List himself as having created the PLOT, and Larry Lieber as the -script, Kirby just the ART, and D. Ayers as the INKER and then everyone would be happy. But Jack wasn't happy. 

Kirby was becoming aware that his Thor stories had been changed though dialogue and small edits in previous issues - he still had completed them on his own with no story conferences (thus no Stan Lee signature)  - and turned them in - but Stan had been instructing Larry to make changes without Kirby's knowledge.

As an example: Originally Jane Foster was written as a strong, confident woman, who worked to assist Dr. Blake - she was his equal - explaining politics to him, assisting him in travel (because of his disability), but the dialogue was changed to turn it into a stereotypical yearning romance (Kirby knew the legends that Thor was married to Sif). As Kirby would eventually take the book over completely, Thor would move past this relationship, Jane Foster was faded out and Thor would spend more and more time in Asgard. 

Thor's relationship with Asgard was confusing during this time too, because of the Lieber's changing dialogue  - Kirby intended for Thor to be unable to get into Asgard and needing to prove himself on earth first - yet when others write the story while Kirby is away - Thor is able to waltz right into Asgard...

In changing the story after Kirby has finished it himself - with no prior discussion of what the story is - Lee is able to claim 'plot' credit (stealing credit AND pay from Kirby for the story), while having Larry actually do the dialogue he wants changed. To discredit Kirby further, and take more credit, Lee would lie and say it was what he had Larry doing all along - though to make it seem legit - he says the scripts were done BEFORE Kirby did the art. But that is NOT how it worked. 

With Larry Lieber's name added to the credits and Stan listing himself as PLOT, it would all come to a head. At the same time this issue would hit the stands, Kirby would finish #89 (in the works as this issue comes out*) and then walk off the book (though still doing covers), missing #90-92 and then #94-96 and #98-100 (though he'd do the Tales of Asgard 5 page stories for #98-100).

He would refuse to work on stories where Larry Lieber would be given -script credit and it would never be shown for a story he worked on again. He knows he has to put up with that from Stanley - he's the boss, after all - but he sure as hell isn't going to stand for it from his brother. 

In discussing the history of Thor, this is a period of time that Marvel completely overlooks - fandom seems to completely overlook - NO ONE seems to discuss. And yet, it shows us so much. Kirby is so annoyed at the idea of Larry Lieber getting credit for the writing of the Thor stories that Jack walks off the book!

So much for the idea they'd been working together for years. No wonder they waited until after Kirby's death to start telling that lie.  

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #86 - Kirby does the cover and then writes and pencils a 13 page Thor story for the issue (all inked by D. Ayers). Stan makes changes and has Larry, his brother, carry them out. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Was page 6 the beginning of the faux Shakespeare that would come to dominate the dialogue in Asgard?

Last panel: it's interesting to think there was a time that 2013 seemed to be in the impossibly distant future.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:52 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Was page 6 the beginning of the faux Shakespeare that would come to dominate the dialogue in Asgard?

Last panel: it's interesting to think there was a time that 2013 seemed to be in the impossibly distant future.

Kirby's handwriting is most definitely visible in the word balloons, but it's hard to tell exactly what was changed... was 'Thou' added or positioned differently in the balloon? One thing for sure... when Lieber has to actually -script the book without the benefit of Kirby's balloon written dialogue (in #90-91), Thor speaks a lot more Manhattan and a lot less Asgardian. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #86 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash. It's the best I could find, except...

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

 ...for this reprint in Conan #40, complete with examples of how they edited it down to 4 pages...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Prince Namor

[bc]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:49 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #9 - Stan's dialogue for the Sub-Mariner is way off... and the FF hitchhiking?

Chapter One:

When I read this panel, it sounds like like something a gangster would say not a Prince. 

(In my head, I hear Edward G. Robinson)

-bc

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:23 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby's handwriting is most definitely visible in the word balloons, but it's hard to tell exactly what was changed... was 'Thou' added or positioned differently in the balloon? One thing for sure... when Lieber has to actually ----script the book without the benefit of Kirby's balloon written dialogue (in #90-91), Thor speaks a lot more Manhattan and a lot less Asgardian. 

Interesting--I would have thought the "Olde Englishe" speech patterns was Lee's idea. Certainly, Kirby seemed to make fun of it a few years later ("Shakespeare made Easy") in FF Annual #5 (This is a Plot? featurette, page 1). I guess as more original pages come to light, we will discover a lot of interesting things to challenge our preconceptions!

Edited January 22, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added last sentence, fixed typo

[Prince Namor]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:23 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Interesting--I would have thought the "Olde Englishe" speech patterns was Lee's idea. Certainly, Kirby seemed to make fun of it a few years later ("Shakespeare made Easy") in FF Annual #5 (This is a Plot? featurette, page 1). I guess as more original pages come to light, we will discover a lot of interesting things to challenge our oreconceptions!

Oh I don't doubt that it's Lee, I just don't think it was Larry based upon how he wrote the Kirby-less issues.

[Zonker]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:25 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

With Larry Lieber's name added to the credits and Stan listing himself as PLOT, it would all come to a head. At the same time this issue would hit the stands, Kirby would finish #89 (in the works as this issue comes out*) and then walk off the book (though still doing covers), missing #90-92 and then #94-96 and #98-100 (though he'd do the Tales of Asgard 5 page stories for #98-100).

He would refuse to work on stories where Larry Lieber would be given --script credit and it would never be shown for a story he worked on again. He knows he has to put up with that from Stanley - he's the boss, after all - but he sure as hell isn't going to stand for it from his brother. 

In discussing the history of Thor, this is a period of time that Marvel completely overlooks - fandom seems to completely overlook - NO ONE seems to discuss. And yet, it shows us so much. Kirby is so annoyed at the idea of Larry Lieber getting credit for the writing of the Thor stories that Jack walks off the book!

So much for the idea they'd been working together for years. No wonder they waited until after Kirby's death to start telling that lie.  

I am still having trouble with the Larry Lieber role in all of this.  He claims in that Alter Ego interview

Quote

Lieber: Let me put it this way: I wouldn't swear to it, but I have no recollection of ever writing a story that had already been penciled. A full -script is the only way I know how to write. No, wait... I remember that I did write at least one story from the artwork, but that was in the '70s. I remember that the penciler had left me a lot of empty space to fill up with dialogue, and I didn't want to use it all... so I drew in some more art to fill up the space!

Maybe he's forgotten (he does leave himself that out by saying "I wouldn't swear to it").  But it is kind of a specific anecdote he recalls as the exception.

Or maybe he's part of a latter-day fraud in cahoots with Stan & Roy Thomas.  But the problem I have with this theory is if they cooked up this story together, they certainly should have gotten their story straight before the interview tape started rolling.  In both the Larry and the Stan interviews, Roy Thomas is clearly leading them on in ways that hurt the credibility of the lie, if it is in fact a lie. (Roy tells Larry that Larry scripted more of the Thors than Larry remembers and tells Stan that the Marvel Method must have preceded FF #1, which Stan only agrees to after Roy tells him that is what happened during their interview!)

It would have been so much better for the conspiracy if Larry just said "Yeah, I was the guy in the office who wrote (or rewrote Kirby's) dialogue, making sure it lined up with the plot Stan originally provided me."

This guy, from Kirby's Comic Journal interview:

Quote

KIRBY: No, I dialogued them. If Stan Lee ever got a thing dialogued, he would get it from someone working in the office. I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue on the back or a description of what was going on. Then Stan Lee would hand them to some guy and he would write in the dialogue.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:57 PM, Zonker said:

I am still having trouble with the Larry Lieber role in all of this.  He claims in that Alter Ego interview

Maybe he's forgotten (he does leave himself that out by saying "I wouldn't swear to it").  But it is kind of a specific anecdote he recalls as the exception.

Or maybe he's part of a latter-day fraud in cahoots with Stan & Roy Thomas.  But the problem I have with this theory is if they cooked up this story together, they certainly should have gotten their story straight before the interview tape started rolling.  In both the Larry and the Stan interviews, Roy Thomas is clearly leading them on in ways that hurt the credibility of the lie, if it is in fact a lie. (Roy tells Larry that Larry scripted more of the Thors than Larry remembers and tells Stan that the Marvel Method must have preceded FF #1, which Stan only agrees to after Roy tells him that is what happened during their interview!)

It would have been so much better for the conspiracy if Larry just said "Yeah, I was the guy in the office who wrote (or rewrote Kirby's) dialogue, making sure it lined up with the plot Stan originally provided me."

This guy, from Kirby's Comic Journal interview:

You know what trips up a liar, right? Not getting their story straight. 

That's what Stan does. That's what Larry does. It's even what Roy does ("The Fantastic Four sold better after Kirby left"... uh, no. The numbers say differently.)

But let's break Larry's BS down line by line. remember... Stan made declarative statements in Origins of Marvel Comics, that he would later have to backtrack on because proof showed otherwise ("Me and Jack were having a ball putting out the monster stories together"), so Larry needs to be careful exactly what he says, while also maintaining just enough info to let fandom perpetuate the lie. 

Lieber: Let me put it this way: I wouldn't swear to it, but I have no recollection of ever writing a story that had already been penciled. 

LOL. If Kirby ever made a statement this way, he'd be crucified. But for Larry, he's putting just enough out there for the Marvel Zombie's to say, "See!! Jack ALWAYS needed someone to write for him!", but not enough to, if more proof comes out, be able to say, "Well, I said I wasn't sure..."

That's how intellectually dishonest people operate. 

Lieber: A full ---script is the only way I know how to write. 

See how he adds a definitive at the end of it that still leaves room to escape. And yet... there are no scripts. Larry was savvy enough to dive into the office trash can to retrieve torn apart Kirby pages, but never saved a single --script HE ever wrote. There are Timely and Atlas scripts that survived from the 40's and 50's, yet from the most important couple of years in Marvel's existence, when it's most convenient, no Marvel scripts exist. 

Lieber: No, wait... I remember that I did write at least one story from the artwork, but that was in the '70s. I remember that the penciler had left me a lot of empty space to fill up with dialogue, and I didn't want to use it all... so I drew in some more art to fill up the space!

Oh look! His memory IS great! He must be telling the truth!

This is a misdirection tactic that liars use to again, not committing to the lie, yet reinforcing it through something similar that they CAN commit to. If pressed, he may even be able to show or verify that this event happen, which doesn't actually give ANY credence to what's in question, but SEEMS to when presented to those who aren't actually questioning how true the original question IS - like Roy Thomas. 

 

Amazingly, none of these comics historians think to ask - "Why'd you go over 30+ years without ever mentioning any of this? Why'd you wait until just after Kirby's death to bring it up? Why did Stan remove you from Thor so quickly, once your name was listed as scripter? Why did Kirby leave Ant-Man once you were listed as scripter? What great characters did you create or co-create after no longer working with Jack Kirby? How much of a reprint rate do you get now that your name is associated with these stories?"

It's a fluff piece. It's done to promote an idea. That's why it's there. Larry's statements are just as suspect as Stan or Roy. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

Maybe... but going back to 1962, why bring Larry's name into the mix at all?  If the goal in 1962 was to establish Stan's authorship of Thor, why not just copy/paste the "by Stan Lee & J. Kirby" sig from Fantastic Four, and if anyone called him on it, justify his signature by his addition of the Thy's, Thou's, Whence's and Shall's -- along with the "Uru Hammer"-- found in this issue?  Seems like adding a credit for Larry is just an unnecessary complication that potentially lessens Stan's claim to authorship rather than enhancing it.  

[Prince Namor]

On 1/22/2023 at 3:55 PM, Zonker said:

Maybe... but going back to 1962, why bring Larry's name into the mix at all?  If the goal in 1962 was to establish Stan's authorship of Thor, why not just copy/paste the "by Stan Lee & J. Kirby" sig from Fantastic Four, and if anyone called him on it, justify his signature by his addition of the Thy's, Thou's, Whence's and Shall's -- along with the "Uru Hammer"-- found in this issue?  Seems like adding a credit for Larry is just an unnecessary complication that potentially lessens Stan's claim to authorship rather than enhancing it.  

That's a great question and it has a great answer.

First... Stan Lee never forgot sign ANYTHING he could lay credit to. Stories of course, but paper doll pages, coloring pages, he even signed covers on occasion. His name was all over Amazing Adult Fantasy and the Fantastic Four and the Hulk. He had his hand in making suggestions on these and in the case of AAF, actually giving Ditko the germ of an idea for a story. 

 

But we KNOW Stan didn't write the monster stories with Kirby - because he never signed a single one. NONE. He never signed a single Kirby monster story.

So... that means Kirby wrote them right?

Can't have that. That throws question to who did what vs the Modern Day Shakespeare. 

 

We DO know, that Larry Lieber's name began to show up on the 4th appearance of Thor, the 4th appearance of Ant-Man, and the 3rd appearance of the Human Torch solo stories. Stan Lee: Plot  Larry Lieber: -script

Why is that important?

Because Stan didn't sign a single one of THESE stories, previous to that, either.

 

Jack would do the monster stories and then just turn them in. Move on to the next one. He did the same thing with these - IN THE MONSTER books. Stan could edit them a bit... but he couldn't lay claim to it, because he never had a say it what they were about. 

By adding himself as a 'plot' guy (i.e. the idea guy), he lays claim as the creator. And does so for 40+ years. It's only lately that we've suddenly got this Larry Lieber co-creator talk - and that's long after Kirby is dead, and Stan's got his $1 million a year contract, etc. He USES Larry as a shield to discredit Kirby as a writer.

And that's what the Marvel vs Kirby trial was all about. Who will get the money? Stan already got his, but the deal was - in order to keep it - he had to promote (i.e. defend) Marvel at all costs.

The trial defense was about making sure the thought process was... Kirby was just an artist. He wasn't a creator. He wasn't a writer.

Thus Stan was the man.

He earned his lifetime pay day.

 

It's about the money. It's always been about the money.

Yeah, the credit is what gets him the money. But once he's established that - whatever is needed to keep the PAY is what is done.

And Larry helped strengthen that. Roy helped with the process as well. And look at how he has reaped the benefit. 

 

Here's a great little Stan Lee story to illustrate my point, given to us by John Ring-a-Ding Romita from Comic Artist #6:

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - Would be the breaking point for Jack Kirby and his heated argument with Stan Lee would be something we'd find out about only 50 years after it happened. 

These are the pages that, after Kirby left Lee's office - following a heated argument - Kirby tore the pages up and threw them in an office trash bin. Larry Lieber retrieved them from the trash, and taped them back together, keeping them for all the years (yet never kept a single --script of his own???)

So what was the story?

Kirby said: "They were going to discontinue it after the third issue because they had no faith in it. The Hulk was saved when a couple of guys came up from Columbia University with a list of 200 names saying that the Hulk was the Mascot of their dormitory. I said, 'For God's sake, don't stop the Hulk now! We've got the college crowd!' We'd never had the college crowd." (Comics Feature, May 1986, "A Talk With The King")

So it WAS struggling right away according to Kirby... and so Kirby does a... very Golden Age-ish type of story where Rick Jones is a High School Basketball Star, the mob is involved trying to fix games and... remember from #3, Rick Jones has mental control over the Hulk..

Well...

The idea behind the story was that Rick Jones, faced with controlling this great power, and any mistake he might make... people could die. 

Stan apparently didn't like this idea and made Kirby change it - remember, if an artist had to redo pages, he didn't get paid for the pages he'd already did - that's why Kirby was angry as well, the pages were useless to him, and thus tore them up and threw them away. 

The Rick Jones mind control idea is quickly discarded in the new story and the Hulk doesn't much improve in sales anyway. 

 

It's interesting to note that... following this, for the first time Jack Kirby does not turn in a story for Tales of Suspense for month, the first time that's happened almost since the beginning of that title and his Human Torch story in Strange Tales is an inventory story he turned in before #101...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - There's no credit box on this issue, making me believe it was worked on previous to these other stories, and D. Ayers signature is again covered up - in its place is the 'Stan Lee & J. Kirby' signature. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - Kirby & Ayers & Lee

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - Kirby & Ayers & Lee

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - Kirby & Ayers & Lee

Letters Page - the 2nd letter is suspect -  'Lee is the only comic mag writer who makes all the stories really lifelike."

Who writes like that? Oh yeah, Stan Lee. 

Also the writer seems to recognize who the inker is?

[bc]

On 1/22/2023 at 8:14 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #4 - Kirby & Ayers & Lee

Part TWO:

The Hulk dialog sounds like it should be coming from the Thing.

-bc

[shadroch]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:07 AM, bc said:

The Hulk dialog sounds like it should be coming from the Thing.

-bc

When I first read the early Hulks, I wondered if they were written for solo Thing stories, like the HT stories in Strange Tales.

Stan had some nerve changing the work Kirby submitted. It's almost as if he thought he was an editor, or something.

Edited January 23, 2023 by shadroch