Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:54 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

"The idea that Stan made a bunch of titles bi-monthly to make it seem like they had more books... actually makes Stan look dumb. You want books that SELL. And if they sell, you want them monthly. More doesn't equal better. So if he was doing that... well that's just not very smart business. No wonder sales sucked before Kirby came."

It would have made sense to publish a bunch of bimonthly books in the first year or so, when they had plenty of inventory in multiple genres to burn through. Once Atlas was soliciting new material (mid-1958 onward), it made more sense to figure out and publish what was selling, which (as sales figures showed*) was the new monster/sci-fi line.

 

* Industry-wide numbers are readily available online from 1960. Given the fact that Jack's stuff quickly went monthly in 1959, it seems that sales were always strong on these books.

Yes, I certainly understand them needing to burn through inventory, but... if you don't have sales... you're not going to be able to publish at all. 

And Stan wasn't making sales.

From July 1957 to the end of the year, Stan is on his own. He does 8 books every month, except September when they do 16!

For 1958, for the first 7 months... exactly one year later, they're still doing 8 books a month... and then...

August - NOTHING!

Did Goodman give Stan one year to try and get it together? And Stan failed? That doesn't sound crazy AT ALL and the timeline matches up...

AND... According to Kirby, when he walked in just after Joe Maneely passed, they were carrying furniture out of the building and planning to shut down. 

Jack Kirby: Marvel was on its , literally, and when I came around, they were practically hauling out the furniture. They were literally moving out the furniture. They were beginning to move, and Stan Lee was sitting there crying. I told them to hold everything, and I pledged that I would give them the kind of books that would up their sales and keep them in business, and that was my big mistake. - From The Comics Journal #134, February 1990.

Some people think that Comics Journal Interview was the first time Kirby brought it up... it wasn't. He'd maintained for years it was that way.

Jack Kirby: When I came up to Marvel in the late Fifties, they were just about to close up, that very afternoon! I told them not to do it. Marvel is a case of survival. I guaranteed them that I’d sell their magazines, and I did. I did the monster stories or whatever they had and they began to liven up a bit. - From James Van Hise, “Superheroes: The Language That Jack Kirby Wrote,” Comics Feature #34, March-April 1985.

Jack Kirby: Marvel was going to close,” Kirby recalls. “When I broke up with Joe, comics everywhere were taking a beating. The ones with capital hung on. Martin Goodman [publisher of Marvel] had slick paper magazines, like Swank and the rest. It was just as easy for Martin to say, ‘Oh, what the hell. Why do comics at all?’ And he was about to—Stan Lee told me so. In fact, it looked like they were going to close the afternoon that I came up. But Goodman gave Marvel another chance. - From “Kirby Takes on the Comics,” Comics Scene #2, March 1982.

 

Jack Kirby: Okay, I came back to Marvel there. It was a sad day. I came back the afternoon they were going to close up. Stan Lee was already the editor there and things were in a bad way. I remember telling him not to close because I had some ideas. What had been done before, I felt, could be done again. I think it was the time when I really began to grow. I was married. I was a man with three children, obligations. - From Shop Talk, Jack Kirby interviewed by Will Eisner, Will Eisner’s Spirit Magazine 39, July 1982.

Others have talked about it as well...

MR. Ayers: Things started to get really bad in 1958. One day when I went in Stan looked at me and said, "Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn't even say hello to me." He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, "You know, it's like a sinking ship and we're the rats, and we've got to get off." When I told Stan I was going to work for the post office, he said, "Before you do that let me send you something that you"ll ink.

Drew Friedman: My dad actually worked at Magazine Management, which was the company that owned Marvel Comics in the fifties and sixties, so he knew Stan Lee pretty well. He knew him before the superhero revival in the early sixties, when Stan Lee had one office, one secretary and that was it. The story was that Martin Goodman who ran the company was trying to phase him out because the comics weren't selling too well.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:54 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

* Industry-wide numbers are readily available online from 1960. Given the fact that Jack's stuff quickly went monthly in 1959, it seems that sales were always strong on these books.

Most likely. He created Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish (and Strange Worlds which only lasted 5 issues - with Strange Tales already there as well as Journey Into Mystery, I guess that was one too many. Those books wouldn't go legit bi-monthly until May of 1960... but, yeah, for the times and the situation that's still pretty quick!

Journey Into Mystery would finish 1959 with 4 issues in the last 7 months and then bi-monthly until April into May of 1960.

Tales to Astonish would finish with 4 issues in the last 7 months and then bi-monthly until April into May of 1960.

Strange Tales would finish with 3 issues in the last 7 months and then bi-monthly until May into June of 1960.

Tales of Suspense would finish with 4 issues in the last 7 months and then bi-monthly until (for some reason) August into September of 1960 (which is what put it two issues behind TTA).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - If Kirby was hinting at anything in Issue #10, many people feel he straight up let his feelings be known in #11. 

Jack Kirby: (He) was the kind of kid that liked to fool around - open and close doors on you. Yeah, in fact, I once told Joe to throw him out of the room... he was a pest... he liked to irk people, and it was the one thing I couldn't take. - From The Comics Journal #134, February 1990.

He was talking about Stan Lee there, NOT the Impossible Man. 

Interestingly, Stan Lee forbid the reuse of this character for over 20 years - long after he was gone, because one of the editors begged him to let him bring him back... Stan said it was because the readers hated the character, but... the letters column, which we'll see in a few months for this issue shows a pretty positive reaction!

Kirby may have inked this cover... its suspected that Al Hartley did alterations on Sue..

Is this the first Marvel Silver Age issue to use the 'Collectors Item' term on the cover? It certainly wouldn't be the last...

The pointy head... lol... just cracks me up... 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - But first... a pretty shrewd idea by Stan for a story...

Edited January 26, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - And now... the story you've all been waiting for...

(I do actually like this story... read it first in Marvel Treasury Edition #2 in 1974!)

Story TWO:

Edited January 26, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - Sub-Mariner pin-up with the Original Art page!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - You can see how Kirby's handwriting ISN'T visible underneath the inked lettering... Stan wouldn't let him do it... both of these story ideas are most likely heavily influenced by Stan and not all that popular with Jack, but... it certainly made the FF unique from any other superhero comic of the time!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Fantastic Four #11 - And as they promised last issue, a 2 page letters page. The first letter makes a point of saying Stan writes the stories and Jack draws them. Oh brother. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #5 - This is the last issue that Kirby would do, and in it he has TWO stories... both of which read like Kirby stories with minor changes... D. Ayers inks the whole thing. At this point, the Hulk is talking completely like he's the same voice as the Thing. Ugh. 

Story ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #5 - Wish I could find the original art for this to see if there are corrections... it COULD be Kirby, but he seemed like he was leaning away from this kind of cliche romance, whereas Stan would have it as a part of most everything he did...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #5 - This is the last issue that Kirby would do, and in it he has TWO stories... both of which read like Kirby stories with minor changes... D. Ayers inks the whole thing. At this point, the Hulk is talking completely like he's the same voice as the Thing. Ugh. 

Story TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Incredible Hulk #5 - Letters Page - someone points out how they like Kirby's issue #1 Hulk... yep, Brando Hulk is long gone, replaced by Ugly Hulk.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #88 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (inked by Steve Ditko), and then write and pencil a 13 page Thor story for the issue, inked by D. Ayers. The credits of course read, PLOT: Stan Lee - -script: L.D. Lieber, but this is a Kirby story and dialogue with only minor changes. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #88 - In the original art here we can still see Kirby's blocky handwriting penciled underneath the inked lettering. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #88 - Also interesting is on the final page of the story, in the original Kirby art there's been a correction... according to Nick Caputo, it looks like Stan wanted a planet earth in the shot and had a visiting Steve Ditko add it (it certainly looks like a Ditko planet), and redraw Thor (for a reason I'm not sure of). He probably picked up an inking job for the cover that day too!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #88 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, STILL signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash with no credit box. Why do these stories not have a credit box? It also would go 57 years without being reprinted...

[Zonker]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:16 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #88 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, STILL signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash with no credit box. Why do these stories not have a credit box? 

Can you tell from the job number if this was an older story completed before the apparent new change in credit box policy?

Also: we here see Stan continuing to ride hard the anti-commie bandwagon.  Do you know if Kirby shared these priorities in his own storytelling at this point?  We know Jack was deeply anti-totalitarian, particularly when it came to the fascist variety.  I don't know if in this period he extended that antipathy to the contemporary Soviet Union in the post-Stalin era.  I kind of get the sense from Fighting American he felt the red scares of the 1950s went way overboard.

[bc]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, Zonker said:

Can you tell from the job number if this was an older story completed before the apparent new change in credit box policy?

Good eye!

That was job V-1000 - near the end of the run for the "V" series of codes if they followed legacy patterns.

Namor already posted the first "X" code job back a few pages for a Sept 1962 story:

So it is very possible that the backup story in JIM 88 came before the new direction and the new job coding.

-bc

[Prince Namor]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, Zonker said:

Can you tell from the job number if this was an older story completed before the apparent new change in credit box policy?

The job number is after the Thor story in this issue, so yeah, it was done well after he'd started using the credit boxes. 
 

Another sign he was aiming this at Kirby very specifically (and that pesky Ayers for confusing things). 

On 1/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, Zonker said:

Also: we here see Stan continuing to ride hard the anti-commie bandwagon.  Do you know if Kirby shared these priorities in his own storytelling at this point?  We know Jack was deeply anti-totalitarian, particularly when it came to the fascist variety.  I don't know if in this period he extended that antipathy to the contemporary Soviet Union in the post-Stalin era.  I kind of get the sense from Fighting American he felt the red scares of the 1950s went way overboard.

Oh yeah, right on all counts I think. The red scare was NOT Hitler, and FA separated itself from stereotypical story telling by being satirical and funny... something unique to superheroes at the time...

But, Jack certainly used power crazed leaders of communist countries in stories since then, but they were of course based on real threats that actually had specific actions against people that he'd read about. 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/27/2023 at 12:46 PM, bc said:

So it is very possible that the backup story in JIM 88 came before the new direction and the new job coding.

-bc

The Thor story in that issue is V-988 though... so the Ditko story came after that...