Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

I obviously don't know exactly what happened, I wasn't there.  But there are other possible explanations.  We know despite what Jack sometimes said, he did in fact work from other people's scripts on occasion.  His last few unhappy months at DC in the 1970s included a few issues each of scripts from Michael Fleischer (Sandman), Denny O'Neil (Richard Dragon & Justice Inc) and Gerry Conway (Kamandi).  He drew the 1985 Super Powers mini-series written by Paul Kupperberg, and of course Steve Gerber's Destroyer Duck.  In fact, earlier in this thread it was speculated that Stan gave Jack an old western ----script to recycle.

 

You're reaching. Kirby has stated he did his own work at Marvel and he never mentioned Larry Lieber EVER. 
 

Meanwhile, Larry, after Kirby's death suddenly says he wrote all of Kirby's monster stories. Other than the ones Stan wrote. What? That neither of them ever signed. 
 

So if you believe the above scenario is true, not much I can do. But if you're looking for what does and doesn't make sense... there you go. 

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

So now it is 1962 and Kirby is busy busy busy.  Not that he would ever complain to Stan about being overworked.  But Stan maybe says "How soon can you get me the next 20 pages" and Jack says "Best case is early next week."  And Stan at least knows enough that there is no sense pushing Jack for more.

Uhh... Jack was AHEAD of Stan. It was Stan who couldn't get everything done. THAT is why he originally hired Larry, to help HIM. 

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

So he's got Jack and he's got Larry Lieber. (I'm guessing Ditko is maxxed out, but that's just a guess).  Stan knows Larry isn't as good or as fast as Jack, but the point is Larry is another pair of hands.  I'm no artist, but I would have to believe that the time it takes Jack to draw a page from someone else's ----script is less than the time it takes Jack to start from a literal white sheet of paper. 

Negative. Even Stan Lee would say that's not true. Writers from the pre-Silver Age era ALL talk about Kirby as a storyteller and an artist as fast and explosively creative. 'A Fountain of Ideas'. 
 

Did Roy say that about Larry Lieber?

Of course not. Kirby has two PLUS decades of meeting monthly deadlines vs a guy who'd never written a comic before. 
 

C'mon dude, you're completely reaching. 

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

So Stan as the production manager just maximizes all his resources.  Get as much as he can out of Jack for the flagship Fantastic Four and the Incredible Hulk that Stan has been touting.  We saw how Stan wasn't really pushing Thor at this point, so maybe he feels like he can get by with letting Larry run with it, just to speed up the overall process of Kirby providing him those pages for the headliners.

Then why pull Larry from Thor after just a few issues? Why was the two issues he did without Kirby written so poorly?

The fact is Kirby was hitting his deadlines throughout this whole era. It was Stan who was struggling to keep enough work to OTHERS so he could fill up all the books and have enough to publish the Romance Comics.

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

I can easily believe JIM #83 is all Kirby.  But at some point soon thereafter I think Stan and Larry start to show their hands:  the soap-opera elements, the "uru" hammer, the Quaker speech patterns.  If Larry is given a plot by Stan, it might well have come from something Jack told Stan, or it might have all been contained in Kirby's original pitch for Thor, thus nothing Stan felt like he could sign his name to.

Oh I have no doubt they interfered and changed stuff. I just don't believe Kirby EVER worked from a Larry Leiber -script. And when he found out Lieber WAS changing stuff AND getting paid for the writing, he blew up. 
 

Who wouldn't be mad?

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

  We will see later a common pattern is Kirby starts up a title (Avengers, X-Men, Sgt Fury), does the first several issues, then drops back to layouts-only, or hands it off completely to someone else to draw.  Not because he gets mad at Stan over and over, but just because it makes sense:  Kirby is the idea factory, so let him get working on the next new idea, and leave the follow-up execution to the Don Hecks, Werner Roths, and Dick Ayers of the world.

Yes, but Larry Lieber never again puts his name to a Kirby story. You don't see the strangeness in that?

On 1/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, Zonker said:

Meanwhile Larry I think was happy to avoid the spotlight that Stan began to shine on the emerging super-heroes line-up, which of course had to all be written in the Stan Lee winking style.  We might not believe him, but it is an alternative explanation:

Lol. Yes, such a nice, convenient excuse to explain why Larry - the co-creator of three Marvel Age characters, just up and pretty much disappeared.
 

If you read what he said in Reisman's book, he may as well be telling Roy, "Yeah I just decided that being poor and barely able to pay my rent while Stan was collecting Rolls Royce's was the way to go."

It's nonsense. 

[Zonker]

There may not be another story with a byline shared between Lieber & Kirby after JIM #89 (which is actually kind of a stinker of a story for Kirby to have really written it), but Kirby does come back for some reason to draw JIM #93 with a scripting credit by R. Berns (Robert Bernstein).

But, I'm jumping ahead.  Plenty of time to talk about those issues once we get there.

Carry on!  

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:59 PM, Zonker said:

There may not be another story with a byline shared between Lieber & Kirby after JIM #89 (which is actually kind of a stinker of a story for Kirby to have really written it), but Kirby does come back for some reason to draw JIM #93 with a scripting credit by R. Berns (Robert Bernstein).

But, I'm jumping ahead.  Plenty of time to talk about those issues once we get there.

Carry on!  

Bernstein and Kirby were friends (colleagues, anyway) at DC. He and Kirby also did two or three Iron Man stories together in early 1963, I believe.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:59 PM, Zonker said:

There may not be another story with a byline shared between Lieber & Kirby after JIM #89 (which is actually kind of a stinker of a story for Kirby to have really written it), but Kirby does come back for some reason to draw JIM #93 with a scripting credit by R. Berns (Robert Bernstein).

But, I'm jumping ahead.  Plenty of time to talk about those issues once we get there.

Carry on!  

Kirby never wanted to leave Thor. He loved those characters and the legends they were brought to life from. 

[Zonker]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:56 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby never wanted to leave Thor. He loved those characters and the legends they were brought to life from. 

I don't doubt it for a minute!  

What I doubt is that Kirby would voluntarily turn down work from Marvel based on refusing to share a byline with Larry Lieber.  (But he's ok to share a byline with Stan or R. Burns?)  We know Kirby was truly fed up with Stan by 1969, but he didn't leave even then until he had a signed contract with DC in hand.  I think it is more likely that during the period Kirby was largely absent from Thor (JIM #90 to #96) he was working on getting Sgt. Fury, The Avengers & X-Men launched, drawing that big FF Annual, etc.

Whatever Stan did or didn't do as a writer, he was unquestionably the editor and therefore the boss, the guy assigning work to the staff.  I think Stan just decided to place his bets on keeping FF at the top while launching new stuff with Jack, rather than prioritizing Thor in those days.  (Jack might have made a different call had he been in charge!)  After all, Stan wasn't going to get an Avengers or an X-Men out of Larry Lieber or Robert Bernstein, was he?  And trying to launch those books immediately with artwork by Dick Ayers, Don Heck and Werner Roth might well have been met with a big  from fandom back then.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by Zonker
Richarded it up

[Prince Namor]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, Zonker said:

I don't doubt it for a minute!  

What I doubt is that Kirby would voluntarily turn down work from Marvel based on refusing to share a byline with Larry Lieber.  (But he's ok to share a byline with Stan or R. Burns?) 

HE HAS to put up with it from Stan, because he's the boss. But Stan is at his wits end trying to keep things together - for the first time in his life he actually has to do the work of putting out the books...

So Kirby agrees to work with Robert Bernstein, someone he respects and IMMEDIATELY returns to Strange Tales with #108-109 and Tales of Suspense #40-41, and 43 to work with him AND goes back to Tales to Astonish with #44 with Ernie Hart!

So after quitting those books in December, returning to them in February WITHOUT Larry Lieber's involvement - who has now been banished to 5 page Stan Lee 'brain teasers' in those books - he comes out with just one new book in March - Sgt. Fury #1.

We wouldn't see Avengers, X-Men or the FF Annual for another 4-5 months.

Kirby didn't drop 4 books for a month (he was back on TOS in January), pick 3 back up just to put out one new comic. 

Larry's work was exposed as substandard, and Kirby didn't like the idea of a novice editing HIS work.

On 1/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, Zonker said:

We know Kirby was truly fed up with Stan by 1969, but he didn't leave even then until he had a signed contract with DC in hand.  I think it is more likely that during the period Kirby was largely absent from Thor (JIM #90 to #96) he was working on getting Sgt. Fury, The Avengers & X-Men launched, drawing that big FF Annual, etc.

Sgt. Fury came out in March - Kirby didn't need 4 months to prepare for Sgt. Fury. In his prime, during this time, Kirby was pumping out 75 pages a month - that's 2.5 a day. PUSHED, he could do 3-6 a day for short stretches.

FF 23 + Thor 13 + AntMan 13 + Hulk (bi-m) 12.5... you give Ayers a month of Rawhide Kid and let Colletta do the Romance stuff...

That's only 61 pages...

To prepare for 3 other books that are 7 months away? Not sure they even planned that far ahead...

If it was Stan pulling Kirby off to plan for other new books, why'd he pull him off the NEW sellers and put him on the dead weight of Romance titles and Western books? Wouldn't THAT be where you put Ayers and Heck?

It doesn't make sense. 

On 1/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, Zonker said:

Whatever Stan did or didn't do as a writer, he was unquestionably the editor and therefore the boss, the guy assigning work to the staff.  I think Stan just decided to place his bets on keeping FF at the top while launching new stuff with Jack, rather than prioritizing Thor in those days.  (Jack might have made a different call had he been in charge!)  After all, Stan wasn't going to get an Avengers or an X-Men out of Larry Lieber or Robert Bernstein, was he?  And trying to launch those books immediately with artwork by Dick Ayers, Don Heck and Werner Roth might well have been met with a big  from fandom back then.  

Another big myth about Lee was his mid-career involvement in Atlas (well, AND his Timely work too). 

In the 50's Stan was the extra editor. The boss' go to. HE didn't really run it all, Al Sulman did, Stan just had final say on everything because he reported directly to Goodman. The physical work of doing the books was left to others. Marvel employed numerous writers - Hank Chapman, Ernie Hart, Paul S. Newman, Carl Wessler, Al Jaffee, Don Rico (and many we'll never know who they were) - He also didn't edit all the books. That was done by whoever was overseeing that genre - Don Rico for the Jungle and Horror, Al Jaffee doing the humor and teen comics, Al Sulman doing most of the rest - Stan oversaw it all as Goodman's inside guy. 

Stan had his book or two - with a Dan DeCarlo or a Joe Maneely - but mainly stuck to a genre western story or two once a month, all to earn extra freelance writer pay. 

After the implosion - Stan had to do it all. He had to put together those 8 books a month and it was a chore... Kirby showing up helped tremendously, because Jack DIDN'T need much - he just turned in completed stories that Stan could publish. 

Lee likes to pretend this period was all HIM directing and planning... but the truth is he had little idea what Jack would just suddenly thrust upon him and say, "Here's an idea I had, Stanley", and Stan, hesitant at first, then gladly taking everything Jack brought in, was the one trying to just KEEP UP.

Kirby never needed a Larry Lieber. He only needed minor editing. It was STAN who needed an extra hand, and an office manager, and a secretary eventually, etc. In 1962, according to testimony in Marvel's trials - Marvel was still a one room operation with Stan at a small desk, and no other furniture... Stan Lee being helped by Sol Brodsky to frantically get out 10-11-12 books a month...

Stan would've gladly put Kirby on every book if he could. Stan had no plan. Jack was the force behind this wave of creativity. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #31 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (inked by himself?) and do THREE stories for this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. The credit box is there, again misleading with Stan Lee: -script. There was no -script for these stories. 

Story ONE: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #31 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (inked by himself?) and do THREE stories for this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. The credit box is there, again misleading with Stan Lee: -script. There was no -script for these stories. 

Story TWO: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #31 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (inked by himself?) and do THREE stories for this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. The credit box is there, again misleading with Stan Lee: -script. There was no -script for these stories. 

Story THREE: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

For October, Marvel would release 12 titles to the newsstand, more than the rumored 8 title restriction. They now have 111 in 10 months (11.1 a month). 

 

October 2, 1962

Journey Into Mystery #87

Kathy #20 - with Stan Goldberg

Life with Millie #20 - with Stan Goldberg

Patsy Walker #104 - with Al Hartley

Tales to Astonish #39

Two Gun Kid #61

 

October 9, 1962

Fantastic Four #10 with Jack Kirby

Strange Tales #104 

Kid Colt Outlaw #108 

Linda Carter, Student Nurse #9 - with Al Hartley

Millie the Model  #112 - with Stan Goldberg

Tales of Suspense #37

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Last issue we saw Stan change the face of the FF, turning them into Movie Stars, and in this issue we'd see him trying to turn himself and Kirby into guest 'stars' of the comic...

I can't help but think that Kirby's 'False Face' villain idea is modeled after Stan, who was insecure about his hair loss... and if you notice, Stan is the one who can't come up with ideas and is asking Jack...

(False Face, of course, would become the Chameleon and be used in ASM #1...)

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Chapter ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Chapter TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Chapter THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Chapter FOUR:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Chapter FIVE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Sue Storm Pin Up:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Kirby/Ayers/Lee

Letters Page:

[Zonker]

On 1/24/2023 at 2:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

in this issue we'd see him trying to turn himself and Kirby into guest 'stars' of the comic...

It does seem like with this issue Stan is starting to aggressively promote the Stan & Jack thing as a key selling point.  I never realized before now the "Dear Stan and Jack" salutation in the letter columns originated as a request from Stan-- and that he proactively edited that greeting into the letters before printing them!  

And what's this on page 6?  Stan's dialogue has the Thing refer to Stan and Jack as "two goons who write" 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Fantastic Four #10 - Most likely Lee discussed some ideas for this story with Kirby, previous to him drawing it. Lee would certainly seem to be the one to put them actually IN the story. Also by again repeating a villain - Doom has been in 3 of 6 issues since being introduced, and by copying a power in a current comic they're doing (Kirby's shrinking Ant-Man) - it pretty much says this is a heavy Stan idea.

That's not being critical... what made the FF so popular was having issues like this where it's lighter and almost fun - but here, Stan is going to do it for a few issues in a row. He's ready to do what he's always done - find a gimmick and repeat it over and over... last issue we got the Sub-mariner back (also showing up in, at the time, 3 of the last 6 issues), in hokey 'buying a movie studio to trap the FF' one issue story.

And next issue... oh boy...

My favorite page of the book and one of the few where we can see Stan's margin notes still (only partially trimmed), that's his barely legible scrawl - he's listening to Kirby tell him what's going on in each panel and he's making notes for himself - basic dialogue, etc. 

In panel one, someone has changed Stan's head and added hair (See!) - to the side Stan has written 'How about this, Stan'. That face with the mustache and glasses - thinking Kirby is mocking Stan, still makes me chuckle. The Hulk pin-up on the wall has been altered to. 

In panel 5 along the right margin we see Stan's notes 'How d(id) ?escape?' and 'Long Story', 'Won't discuss it now' 

Later on, when Jack stops coming in and sends the pages in, we'll see some more extensive notes that HE writes for Stan...