Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:04 PM, Zonker said:

It does seem like with this issue Stan is starting to aggressively promote the Stan & Jack thing as a key selling point.  I never realized before now the "Dear Stan and Jack" salutation in the letter columns originated as a request from Stan-- and that he proactively edited that greeting into the letters before printing them!  

Yep. He knew how to promote...

On 1/24/2023 at 3:04 PM, Zonker said:

And what's this on page 6?  Stan's dialogue has the Thing refer to Stan and Jack as "two goons who write" 

I still laugh at that when I read it! 

And Stan didn't realize he was giving Jack a co-writing credit!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - Jack Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils a 13 page Human Torch story in this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - We can see Kirby's block lettering underneath the inked words - he was writing this story himself. With a '-script', it wouldn't need to be written in, other than by the letterer - who wouldn't have excess showing...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - In the Ditko story from this issue, you just don't see the clash from the two styles of writing underneath... it's a clean lettering because nothing was there previously.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - Here, we get a Larry Lieber 'scripted' story. It reads like many of Stan Lee's 'stories', but it's scripted by Larry according to the credit box. It's weird... this story reads like a Stan Lee story, but the Torch story supposedly scripted by Larry, reads like a Kirby story. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:05 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - Jack Kirby does the cover and writes and pencils a 13 page Human Torch story in this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. 

I'm assuming, based on the villain's silly name, that Kirby was referencing the "Legend of P*ss-Pot Pete." (You can look it up--it's definitely NSFW.) It took a few years before he was renamed the Trapster. Maybe someone at the Comics Code Authority complained?

[Zonker]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Strange Tales #104 - We can see Kirby's block lettering underneath the inked words - he was writing this story himself. With a '--script', it wouldn't need to be written in, other than by the letterer - who wouldn't have excess showing...

The presence of the words in Kirby's original art is the strongest evidence that he wrote this stuff.  But I wonder, is it possible he included the captions and speech balloons in order to

- serve as a guide for himself, in order to know how much of each panel he could draw versus leaving for the letterer?
- transmit the words from the -script for the ease of the letterer?  (I imagine the conventional way is the letterer has the writer's -script to 1 side and the artist's page to the other, and has to look back & forth constantly?  Does the artist just develop a feel for how much space he needs to leave vacant for the speech balloons?)
- offer Jack's own improvements to the words he sometimes may have been given?

Or some combination of all 3?

Because when I read something like this:

Quote

Have to be more careful!  I absent-mindedly almost wrote "Human Torch" on the deposit slip!

Those words sound like someone trying to follow Stan's idea of super-heroes who are fallible.  But it comes across as just moronic!  How often in his life up until this point has Johnny written his name as Johnny Storm, versus how often has he written out the words "Human Torch" to refer to himself? 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:40 PM, Zonker said:

The presence of the words in Kirby's original art is the strongest evidence that he wrote this stuff.  But I wonder, is it possible he included the captions and speech balloons in order to

- serve as a guide for himself, in order to know how much of each panel he could draw versus leaving for the letterer?
- transmit the words from the --script for the ease of the letterer?  (I imagine the conventional way is the letterer has the writer's --script to 1 side and the artist's page to the other, and has to look back & forth constantly?  Does the artist just develop a feel for how much space he needs to leave vacant for the speech balloons?)
- offer Jack's own improvements to the words he sometimes may have been given?

Or some combination of all 3?

Kirby created stories. That's what he always did. FOR HIS WHOLE CAREER. There's nothing in Larry Lieber's extremely brief collection of credited stories to show us anything we can point at and say, "That's very Larry Lieber-ish".

Kirby said HE wrote the stories. He has thousands of stories to show as proof. 

Stan Lee fans still don't believe it.

40 years AFTER the fact, Larry Lieber says HE wrote the stories - has NO proof.

Stan Lee fans believe every word. 

LOL. 

On 1/24/2023 at 6:40 PM, Zonker said:

Because when I read something like this:

Those words sound like someone trying to follow Stan's idea of super-heroes who are fallible. 

Stan's idea??? When did, prior to working with Jack Kirby, did Stan ever have a hero who was fallible???

Kirby DID, and a glaring one just before he came back full time to Marvel. In the Double Life of Private Strong - the Shield goes into action, leaving his friend Spud in harms way - when Spud is killed the Shield realizes  "I must learn all about them (his powers) -- to help others who may need him as Spud did!" His failure to be there for his friend, results in his death and makes him realize the responsibility of having that ability to help others....

I haven't found a single instance of this in Stan's pre-Kirby work.

On 1/24/2023 at 6:40 PM, Zonker said:

But it comes across as just moronic!  How often in his life up until this point has Johnny written his name as Johnny Storm, versus how often has he written out the words "Human Torch" to refer to himself? 

There's a lot in these early books that sounds silly 60 years later... but yeah, I thought that too.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:01 AM, Prince Namor said:

HE HAS to put up with it from Stan, because he's the boss. But Stan is at his wits end trying to keep things together - for the first time in his life he actually has to do the work of putting out the books...

So Kirby agrees to work with Robert Bernstein, someone he respects and IMMEDIATELY returns to Strange Tales with #108-109 and Tales of Suspense #40-41, and 43 to work with him AND goes back to Tales to Astonish with #44 with Ernie Hart!

So after quitting those books in December, returning to them in February WITHOUT Larry Lieber's involvement - who has now been banished to 5 page Stan Lee 'brain teasers' in those books - he comes out with just one new book in March - Sgt. Fury #1.

We wouldn't see Avengers, X-Men or the FF Annual for another 4-5 months.

Kirby didn't drop 4 books for a month (he was back on TOS in January), pick 3 back up just to put out one new comic. 

Larry's work was exposed as substandard, and Kirby didn't like the idea of a novice editing HIS work.

Sgt. Fury came out in March - Kirby didn't need 4 months to prepare for Sgt. Fury. In his prime, during this time, Kirby was pumping out 75 pages a month - that's 2.5 a day. PUSHED, he could do 3-6 a day for short stretches.

FF 23 + Thor 13 + AntMan 13 + Hulk (bi-m) 12.5... you give Ayers a month of Rawhide Kid and let Colletta do the Romance stuff...

That's only 61 pages...

To prepare for 3 other books that are 7 months away? Not sure they even planned that far ahead...

If it was Stan pulling Kirby off to plan for other new books, why'd he pull him off the NEW sellers and put him on the dead weight of Romance titles and Western books? Wouldn't THAT be where you put Ayers and Heck?

It doesn't make sense. 

Another big myth about Lee was his mid-career involvement in Atlas (well, AND his Timely work too). 

In the 50's Stan was the extra editor. The boss' go to. HE didn't really run it all, Al Sulman did, Stan just had final say on everything because he reported directly to Goodman. The physical work of doing the books was left to others. Marvel employed numerous writers - Hank Chapman, Ernie Hart, Paul S. Newman, Carl Wessler, Al Jaffee, Don Rico (and many we'll never know who they were) - He also didn't edit all the books. That was done by whoever was overseeing that genre - Don Rico for the Jungle and Horror, Al Jaffee doing the humor and teen comics, Al Sulman doing most of the rest - Stan oversaw it all as Goodman's inside guy. 

Stan had his book or two - with a Dan DeCarlo or a Joe Maneely - but mainly stuck to a genre western story or two once a month, all to earn extra freelance writer pay. 

After the implosion - Stan had to do it all. He had to put together those 8 books a month and it was a chore... Kirby showing up helped tremendously, because Jack DIDN'T need much - he just turned in completed stories that Stan could publish. 

Lee likes to pretend this period was all HIM directing and planning... but the truth is he had little idea what Jack would just suddenly thrust upon him and say, "Here's an idea I had, Stanley", and Stan, hesitant at first, then gladly taking everything Jack brought in, was the one trying to just KEEP UP.

Kirby never needed a Larry Lieber. He only needed minor editing. It was STAN who needed an extra hand, and an office manager, and a secretary eventually, etc. In 1962, according to testimony in Marvel's trials - Marvel was still a one room operation with Stan at a small desk, and no other furniture... Stan Lee being helped by Sol Brodsky to frantically get out 10-11-12 books a month...

Stan would've gladly put Kirby on every book if he could. Stan had no plan. Jack was the force behind this wave of creativity. 

Let's suppose all of this came to a head in June 1962 (three months ahead of the publication date is a reasonable guess). Jack Kirby has been working his tail off for Atlas/Marvel for 4 years, probably without a meaningful break. He has two teenagers, a 9-year-old, and a toddler, and summer beckons. If he felt undervalued, I could see him saying to Lee: "You know, Stanley, the wife and kids and I are overdue a vacation. Maybe you and your brother can hold down the fort without me for a few weeks." 

A few weeks later, it becomes apparent that the company is far better off with Kirby than without him, so alternate arrangements are made. Bernstein and Hart are experienced writers (unlike Larry Lieber), so Kirby signs off on having them tweak/edit his dialogue and captions.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:27 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Let's suppose all of this came to a head in June 1962 (three months ahead of the publication date is a reasonable guess). Jack Kirby has been working his tail off for Atlas/Marvel for 4 years, probably without a meaningful break. He has two teenagers, a 9-year-old, and a toddler, and summer beckons. If he felt undervalued, I could see him saying to Lee: "You know, Stanley, the wife and kids and I are overdue a vacation. Maybe you and your brother can hold down the fort without me for a few weeks." 

A few weeks later, it becomes apparent that the company is far better off with Kirby than without him, so alternate arrangements are made. Bernstein and Hart are experienced writers (unlike Larry Lieber), so Kirby signs off on having them tweak/edit his dialogue and captions.

That is a possibility. That very much could be a possibility. 

It's also a possibility that Kirby's huff earns him his first raise because the number of books sold is now going to be two years in a row and they can't afford to lose him. 

The other thing is... we know that he ALSO has an argument with Stan a few months earlier over Hulk #4... he yells loud enough that Larry over hears them (according to his testimony), storms out of Stan's office - tears up the pages and throws them in the trash...

So Kirby IS annoyed about something going on at Marvel with the editing of his stories...

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #87 - Jack Kirby does the cover, then writes and pencils a 10 page Thor story, all inked by D. Ayers. 

[Prince Namor]

I was thinking about this scenario as I read this issue...

Jack has a meeting with Stan about this story and does a rough draft of the cover first. He leaves to go draw the story.

Stan has a meeting with Larry and tells him HIS (Jack's) 'plot' for the latest issue.

Larry writes a -script, then turns it back in to Stan.

Kirby turns in the pages completely unaware of the -script.

Stan uses the -script to somewhat piece together the story, because he's juggling all the books at once.

 

Unlikely? You'd be surprised that this is something that actually DID go on in the newspaper comic strip business and Archie Goodwin once wrote a story about it for Creepy #1... The main character Baldo Smudge, isn't based on Lee (though that could be a great name for him before he transforms into Funky Flashman), but Don Sherwood, who was known to hire out every part for his DAN FLAGG comic strip. 

Sherwood paid his people for the credit he took though. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #87 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash. It also would go 57 years without being reprinted... so unless you have this issue or bought the Omnibus in 2019, you've never read this story!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Journey Into Mystery #87 - Larry Lieber also had a '-script' in this issue for a Paul Reinman drawn story called 'I Know the Secret of the Sea Monster!' 

I can't find a copy of it... if anyone has a reader copy of this issue and wants to scan and post this story here, please do!

Synopsis: A sea serpent is sighted and causes panic, drawing a military response culminating in a nuclear strike. The serpent retreats beneath the surface, but a reporter that communicated with it explains that it was a harmless lost alien child. And if that's the child, how big will the parents be?

Hmmm... that sounds like one of Stan's sort-of story 5 pagers...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #39 - Jack Kirby does the cover and then writes and pencils a 10 page Ant-Man story, all inked by D. Ayers. 

The Scarlet Beetle would actually return in a back-up Ant Man story in Iron Man #44.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #39 - Again, we can see Jack Kirby's very specific blocky handwriting written right into the word balloons...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #39 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash. This one WOULD be reprinted, in Uncanny Tales in 1975!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #39 - Larry Lieber had a -script in this issue as well, drawn by the Delightful Don Heck... it would be 50 years before anyone let this stinker see the light of day. The hero saves the day by turning off the power switch in the Flying Saucer. LOL.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1962

Two Gun Kid #61 - Jack Kirby does the cover and THREE stories for the issue, all inked by D. Ayers. Stan Lee lists himself as '-script' even though we know, there was no -script, he simply dialogued the completed story. 

Story ONE: