Is this really still a thing? 1 1

[Dr. Balls]

Was doing a little bit of research on some Modern Age (?) art and came across this description for a Hari Kari book on AtomicAvenue.com:

"Have you got a violent attitude towards women, yet wonder why you’ve never had a non-financial relationship with one? Do you view women merely as objects of sexual gratification, the bigger their breasts the better? Well there’s good news because after meticulous market research, Blackout has created a title specifically for you and your fellow misogynists. “Her Art Is Death” claims the subtitle. So is penciller Guy Dorian’s."

I reported it, but who knows what will be done. The bigger question is that is this really a thing still? Calling comic collectors Mysogynists? Saying they are nerds living in their parent's basements and ordering hookers? Claiming they commit violence towards women? I'm almost 50 years old and really haven't paid much attention to (or cared about) the hobby being subjected to generalizations that were pretty rampant 25 years ago. I was just surprised something like this was posted on a retail website in the Age of Anti-Hurty Feelings where you can have your entire webserver shut down for one thinly-veiled bigoted comment.

Edited for era correction

Edited January 18, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[Lazyboy]

1. That's not a Copper book.

2. That description reads like it was incompletely copied from somewhere (or somewhen?).

3. Regardless of when it was written, I don't believe it's meant for comic collectors as a whole.

[the blob]

Well, some guys did not like She Hulk, so they were clearly misogynists. 

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:09 PM, Lazyboy said:

 Regardless of when it was written, I don't believe it's meant for comic collectors as a whole.

I would agree with that - except that’s the retail description written about the book. It seems like an odd way to sell a book. Granted, it’s not like it’s a big seller or even remotely popular, so it may have flown under the radar for quite some time.

I also put a request in to move this to the modern section as 1995 is the modern era - which seems odd, but that’s the way it goes.

[shadroch]

I don't know.  Somebody just invented a comic universe without gay people and some folks were willing to pay $30  sight unseen for it.  No one has ever gone broke under-estimating the stupidity of the masses.

[ThothAmon]

Just heard that the Phantom Lady said she saw nothing wrong with the art. Dr. Wertham disagrees. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:28 AM, shadroch said:

I don't know.  Somebody just invented a comic universe without gay people and some folks were willing to pay $30  sight unseen for it.  No one has ever gone broke under-estimating the stupidity of the masses.

So, devil's advocate here, let's say you're going to do a comic book on your own. You're a hetero guy, you're going to write it/draw it/produce it/whatever with seemingly less resources than an established publisher (i.e. having much less staff input and viewpoints). Do you attempt to write in gay characters even though you're not gay? Do you pretend to be of that mindset when explaining a gay character?

And I would extend that to black characters, Latino characters, Asian characters, etc. If you are of one specific race, do you attempt to include others outside of your own race for the sake of inclusion? And if you do, do you face the judgment of mis-characterization of those races or orientations - or even worse: falling into stereotyping?

I have no experience of the Isom Universe, and the conversations that it brought up were months ago and I don't quite remember the details. Did the creator purposely exclude those groups because he didn't want them there, or did he exclude them out of not wanting to misrepresent them in the book out of, perhaps, not knowing gay people enough to characterize them in a comic?

I've messed around with creating a comic for years (never getting past the plotting stage) and I can tell you that it never included minorities or gay people - not because I didn't want them there, but because the characters I am developing are based on my own experiences and things I've learned with interactions with people that I reflect in the story - to me, that is how you stay grounded in reality. When you reach out from that, it seems hard to break away from stereotyping, because if you don't know people from those minorities, you're just guessing how to write someone - and that doesn't ever come across very well.

[newshane]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:01 AM, Dr. Balls said:

So, devil's advocate here, let's say you're going to do a comic book on your own. You're a hetero guy, you're going to write it/draw it/produce it/whatever with seemingly less resources than an established publisher (i.e. having much less staff input and viewpoints). Do you attempt to write in gay characters even though you're not gay? Do you pretend to be of that mindset when explaining a gay character?

And I would extend that to black characters, Latino characters, Asian characters, etc. If you are of one specific race, do you attempt to include others outside of your own race for the sake of inclusion? And if you do, do you face the judgment of mis-characterization of those races or orientations - or even worse: falling into stereotyping?

 

Interesting. 

I'm currently in the early stages of writing a novel. I'm a white male. I want one of the main characters to be a black woman. It's a period piece (early 20th century, southern USA), so I'm also struggling with the use of a "forbidden" racial epithet in some of the dialogue. 

Given today's climate, I'm scared that this will give publishers a reason to reject me. I'm also worried about the potential backlash that could come from the "mis-characterization" of race. On the other hand, I would like to include a little bit of diversity (all the other characters are white) to connect with a wider audience. 

I feel like I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't. A really precarious and downright silly situation. 

In the end, the only way I will succeed is to remain true to my own creation. I must speak without censorship in order to maintain authenticity as an artist. The chips fall where they may. 

All goes back to this: does the artist create art as a cathartic expression, thereby serving himself? Or does the artist create art specifically for mass consumption, making compromises in the original vision? 

Rock and a hard place. 

 

[shadroch]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:01 AM, Dr. Balls said:

So, devil's advocate here, let's say you're going to do a comic book on your own. You're a hetero guy, you're going to write it/draw it/produce it/whatever with seemingly less resources than an established publisher (i.e. having much less staff input and viewpoints). Do you attempt to write in gay characters even though you're not gay? Do you pretend to be of that mindset when explaining a gay character?

And I would extend that to black characters, Latino characters, Asian characters, etc. If you are of one specific race, do you attempt to include others outside of your own race for the sake of inclusion? And if you do, do you face the judgment of mis-characterization of those races or orientations - or even worse: falling into stereotyping?

I have no experience of the Isom Universe, and the conversations that it brought up were months ago and I don't quite remember the details. Did the creator purposely exclude those groups because he didn't want them there, or did he exclude them out of not wanting to misrepresent them in the book out of, perhaps, not knowing gay people enough to characterize them in a comic?

I've messed around with creating a comic for years (never getting past the plotting stage) and I can tell you that it never included minorities or gay people - not because I didn't want them there, but because the characters I am developing are based on my own experiences and things I've learned with interactions with people that I reflect in the story - to me, that is how you stay grounded in reality. When you reach out from that, it seems hard to break away from stereotyping, because if you don't know people from those minorities, you're just guessing how to write someone - and that doesn't ever come across very well.

Would you use it as the main selling point?

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:13 AM, shadroch said:

Would you use it as the main selling point?

Absolutely not. I think I know where you are going with this - and I'm of the philosophy that if your selling point is the exclusion of something/someone, that's a pretty weak marketing tactic. Effective marketing used to mean communicating an idea in a positive way that serves as a call-to-action for the viewer to engage/purchase. Now, admittedly, I'm an old school advertising guy - so that may not be the modern marketing philosophy.

Which is a shame, really - because marketing towards negativity disguised as a positive may generate sales - but in the end, are those the customers you really want, and will those customers organically influence more sales? Probably not - and they will actually create a divisiveness to your product, which - again - may fill your pockets in the short term, but does not add positively to the culture around your product - which does not bode well for longevity.

That's a long, wordy explanation - but circling back to the original statement from my original post: that's why I feel that singling out people in a negative way (or in Isom's books, excluding) is absolutely not the right way to market the hobby. If your book doesn't have gay or minority characters for whatever reason - I can accept that because you're the creator and it's your vision. I'm just not a huge fan of using those reasonings to sell the book. The book should sell on a compelling story or art, but the world may not work that way anymore.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[newshane]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:22 AM, Dr. Balls said:

The book should sell on a compelling story or art, but the world may not work that way anymore.

Indeed. 

[grebal]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:13 AM, newshane said:

Interesting. 

I'm currently in the early stages of writing a novel. I'm a white male. I want one of the main characters to be a black woman. It's a period piece (early 20th century, southern USA), so I'm also struggling with the use of a "forbidden" racial epithet in some of the dialogue. 

Given today's climate, I'm scared that this will give publishers a reason to reject me. I'm also worried about the potential backlash that could come from the "mis-characterization" of race. On the other hand, I would like to include a little bit of diversity (all the other characters are white) to connect with a wider audience. 

I feel like I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't. A really precarious and downright silly situation. 

In the end, the only way I will succeed is to remain true to my own creation. I must speak without censorship in order to maintain authenticity as an artist. The chips fall where they may. 

All goes back to this: does the artist create art as a cathartic expression, thereby serving himself? Or does the artist create art specifically for mass consumption, making compromises in the original vision? 

Rock and a hard place. 

 

...

Edited January 19, 2023 by grebal

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:13 PM, newshane said:

Interesting. 

I'm currently in the early stages of writing a novel. I'm a white male. I want one of the main characters to be a black woman. It's a period piece (early 20th century, southern USA), so I'm also struggling with the use of a "forbidden" racial epithet in some of the dialogue. 

Given today's climate, I'm scared that this will give publishers a reason to reject me. I'm also worried about the potential backlash that could come from the "mis-characterization" of race. On the other hand, I would like to include a little bit of diversity (all the other characters are white) to connect with a wider audience. 

I feel like I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't. A really precarious and downright silly situation. 

In the end, the only way I will succeed is to remain true to my own creation. I must speak without censorship in order to maintain authenticity as an artist. The chips fall where they may. 

All goes back to this: does the artist create art as a cathartic expression, thereby serving himself? Or does the artist create art specifically for mass consumption, making compromises in the original vision? 

Rock and a hard place. 

Assuming you get to the point where an editor at a publisher is agreeing to consider your novel, making a point of saying something along the lines of "I'm trying to include some diversity, but I don't have the knowledge that I would like to to write a convincing black female character, so the input of an editor would really help me to improve this" would probably go a long way. 

[shadroch]

Part of writing a novel is research. 

[newshane]

On 1/19/2023 at 11:00 AM, shadroch said:

Part of writing a novel is research. 

Indeed. That's why it's taking me so long. 

[gradejunky]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:13 PM, newshane said:

Interesting. 

I'm currently in the early stages of writing a novel. I'm a white male. I want one of the main characters to be a black woman. It's a period piece (early 20th century, southern USA), so I'm also struggling with the use of a "forbidden" racial epithet in some of the dialogue. 

Given today's climate, I'm scared that this will give publishers a reason to reject me. I'm also worried about the potential backlash that could come from the "mis-characterization" of race. On the other hand, I would like to include a little bit of diversity (all the other characters are white) to connect with a wider audience. 

I feel like I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't. A really precarious and downright silly situation. 

In the end, the only way I will succeed is to remain true to my own creation. I must speak without censorship in order to maintain authenticity as an artist. The chips fall where they may. 

All goes back to this: does the artist create art as a cathartic expression, thereby serving himself? Or does the artist create art specifically for mass consumption, making compromises in the original vision? 

Rock and a hard place. 

 

In today's world you can't win.  You don't include every race and made up gender in a story you create, and you are a bigot, -ist and/or -phobe.  You do write them in and mischaracterize a certain group because you have not had enough actual life experiences interacting with said people, and you are a bigot, -ist and/or -phobe.  I have literally had multi-hit acid trips  that were less bonkers than the world around us at this juncture.

It comes down to this.  Write what you want and are comfortable with.  The ivory towers of the mentally deranged will crumble under their own weight soon. We have the 1st Amendment for a reason, and there is also a reason why it is the 1st Amendment and not the 10th. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by gradejunky

[Lazyboy]

On 1/19/2023 at 3:30 PM, gradejunky said:

In today's world you can't win.  You don't include every race and made up gender in a story you create, and you are a bigot, -ist and/or -phobe.  You do write them in and mischaracterize a certain group because you have not had enough actual life experiences interacting with said people, and you are a bigot, -ist and/or -phobe.  I have literally had multi-hit acid trips  that were less bonkers than the world around us at this juncture.

It comes down to this.  Write what you want and are comfortable with.  The ivory towers of the mentally deranged will crumble under their own weight soon. We have the 1st Amendment for a reason, and there is also a reason why it is the 1st Amendment and not the 10th. 

The mentally deranged aren't in ivory towers. It's understandable that you don't know that since you're obviously nowhere near one and have probably never even seen one. You must have some nice rose-colored glasses, though. Or maybe just some blinders.

[jdandns]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:13 AM, newshane said:

Interesting. 

I'm currently in the early stages of writing a novel. I'm a white male. I want one of the main characters to be a black woman. It's a period piece (early 20th century, southern USA), so I'm also struggling with the use of a "forbidden" racial epithet in some of the dialogue. 

Given today's climate, I'm scared that this will give publishers a reason to reject me. I'm also worried about the potential backlash that could come from the "mis-characterization" of race. On the other hand, I would like to include a little bit of diversity (all the other characters are white) to connect with a wider audience. 

I feel like I'm screwed if I do and screwed if I don't. A really precarious and downright silly situation. 

In the end, the only way I will succeed is to remain true to my own creation. I must speak without censorship in order to maintain authenticity as an artist. The chips fall where they may. 

All goes back to this: does the artist create art as a cathartic expression, thereby serving himself? Or does the artist create art specifically for mass consumption, making compromises in the original vision? 

Rock and a hard place. 

 

Just tell the same story, but set it on a different planet that's like our own, but specifically stated to not be our own.  And make sure to not use any colors of people we have here on Earth. 

Watch some episodes of the original Star Trek. They had it down pretty well. 

[thehumantorch]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:00 AM, shadroch said:

Part of writing a novel is research. 

A novel idea.

[djzombi]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:30 PM, gradejunky said:

You don't include every race and made up gender in a story...

"Made up gender"?