Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:52 AM, Lazyboy said:

a full appearance has nothing whatsoever to do with how much of the character the artist draws.

 

Which is why the comic collecting definition of "full appearance" and the the actual definition of the term are not the same. I think this causes confusion with new collectors since what happens at the end of Hulk 180 is a full appearance of Wolverine by the dictionary definition of the term(as in you SEE HIM FULLY). Which is why I think "introduction" would be a better way to describe a character's first full story. But, I know I'm bashing my head against the wall on this so I'll stop...

Edited January 24, 2023 by trademarkcomics
Typo

[JC25427N]

 

On 1/24/2023 at 2:42 PM, trademarkcomics said:

That's just simply not true.

It goes like this:

Hulk #180: Wendigo story

Hulk #181: Wolverine story

Hulk #182: Hammer and Anvil story

Giant-Size X-Men #1: New X-Men story with Wolverine as a main member of the team

Wolverine's impact on the stories is so minor in 180 and 182 that he's barely worth mentioning. However, that does not change the fact that 180 is his first appearance anywhere, no matter how minor it is. 

 

On 1/24/2023 at 2:34 PM, trademarkcomics said:

There's no argument though..... No valid argument anyway.

 

On 1/24/2023 at 1:28 PM, Gatsby77 said:

I know this has been litigated ad nauseum, but you're not wrong.

The entire plot of Hulk 180 revolves around Weapon X, Wolverine appears (in full, not shadow) and talks (to the Hulk).

 

I don't know what to say anymore beyond what I have. I don't think your system is wrong or flawed in anyway (at least not any more wrong or flawed than what we have now), I just don't think it's the magic cure-all that you're looking at it as. Right now, there are people that obviously believe that 180 revolves around Wolverine/Weapon X (even though you believe that to be invalid), so I think it's reasonable to believe in your system people will say 180 should count as a "Wolverine Story" and "Introduction".

People will still argue because what's being argued isn't being changed it's being called something else, and regardless of whether you think these hypothetical arguments in your system are valid or not the arguments will exist because we'll still be in the same situation we are in now: two sides of an argument where each side thinks the other's arguments are not valid

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by JC25427N
clarifying ;)

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:05 PM, JC25427N said:

 

 

 

I don't know what to say anymore beyond what I have. I don't think your system is wrong or flawed in anyway, I just don't think it's the magic cure-all that you're looking at it as. Right now, there are people that obviously believe that 180 revolves around Wolverine/Weapon X (even though you believe that to be invalid), so I think it's reasonable to believe in your system people will say 180 should count as a "Wolverine Story" and "Introduction".

People will still argue because what's being argued isn't being changed it's being called something else, and regardless of whether you think these hypothetical arguments in your system are valid or not the arguments will exist because we'll still be in the same situation we are in now: two sides of an argument where each side thinks the other's arguments are not valid

 

 

I think this thread has already proved that people will argue about just about anything, valid or not. And there's never been a cure-all to that since the beginning of time. Still, I feel more clear and concise definitions of what is a first appearance(first time we see a character) and what is the actual introduction(the first story in which we get to know a character) couldn't hurt. 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

Roy Thomas, co-creator, says: "Obviously it's 180 because he's in that last panel," Thomas tells ComicBook.com. Thomas co-created the character with Len Wein and John Romita. "It's just that the other is a full story and the one's a panel of it. But the first appearance is in #180, obviously."  (Roy, an old time collector, knows that no one thinks that Galactus's first appearance is FF 49.)  

Yeah, that was answering a question about Wolverine's first appearance, which is obviously 180. He even acknowledges the difference between a brief appearance and a full appearance, because he actually knows a thing or two about stories.

On 1/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

The story then shifts to future Alpha Flight member Wendigo

 Wendigo is a villainous monster created by a curse, not Alpha Flight's Sasquatch.

On 1/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

And what do we see in IH 180?:

The installation in which Alpha Flight was assembled and the first reference to "Weapon X:" 

...

and finally we the first appearance of Wolverine in full, in costume, talking, in story continuity, with exposition on his backgound - that he is "Weapon X":

 

In short, he's a thread in the story throughout.

Being mentioned in a cryptic way earlier doesn't make him "a thread in the story throughout" 180 even if he does actually appear at the end. Many characters and other things have been referenced/mentioned/whatever in an issue, without actually being part of the story until a later issue.

On 1/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

  He just does not appear until the final page.  But an appearance is an appearance.  This is not someone lurking in the shadows.

It is an appearance, but not all appearances are equal (or even close), first or otherwise.

On 1/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, sfcityduck said:

Should 180 be worth more than 181?  I'm not arguing that.  A first appearance does not need to be the most valuable appearance of character.  In today's CGC world where covers have disproportionate weight, that 181 is worth more than 180 is not surprising.  But it does not mean that 181 is the first appearance - just that it is the more valuable book in the marketplace. 

Was it surprising decades before CGC existed? CGC didn't change anything for these issues.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 2:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Which is why the comic collecting definition of "full appearance" and the the actual definition of the term are not the same. I think this causes confusion with new collectors since what happens at the end of Hulk 180 is a full appearance of Wolverine by the dictionary definition of the term(as in you SEE HIM FULLY).

Yes, because we're dealing with comics, which contain stories. Otherwise, ads would be first appearances. While there is a tiny fringe moronity... er, minority that tries to push that, ads are not appearances.

Also, it's first brief appearance and first full appearance, not first partial appearance and first full appearance. There really shouldn't be any confusion.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Lazyboy
clarification

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

Yes, because we're dealing with comics, which contain stories. Otherwise, ads would be first appearances. While there is a tiny fringe moronity... er, minority that tries to push that, ads are not appearances.

Can we call those ‘1st looks’?

Before ASM 194, I could have seen what Black Cat looked like:

Before ASM 129....

 

[grebal]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:33 AM, trademarkcomics said:

On 1/23/2023 at 11:08 PM, grebal said:

Interesting, thank you.  Never having looked it up, I've generally read it as "retroactively conceived."  I.e. the PTB decided later that they would rewrite established history.

Won't dive into the hornet's nest of the main topic, except to comment that in the 8 years or so I've been back collecting, I noticed a large increase in the value of Hulk 180 as a percentage of 181.  I've assumed mainly that this was because of the huge run ups we've seen in prices (can't afford a 181 so buy this other one), but maybe the persistent argument of "well, 180 is technically Wolv's first appearance" has gained traction. 

So for all those with stockpiles of the "lesser" counterparts to a key book, keep it up!  Ya never know.

There's nothing technical about it, it is his first appearance. #181 is just more appealing as an introduction to the character. Maybe we could just change the classification. I vehemently hate the first "full" appearance thing. Why not say #180 is the "First appearance of Wolverine" and #181 is the "Introduction of Wolverine". Amazing Spider-Man #299 is the "First appearance of Venom" and #300 is the "Introduction of Venom"? Just an idea...

Fair point.

But in the age of subjective definitions, please let me clarify that I don't consider a cameo an "appearance."

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:34 PM, grebal said:

Fair point.

But in the age of subjective definitions, please let me clarify that I don't consider a cameo an "appearance."

How does one make a cameo without actually appearing?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:40 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How does one make a cameo without actually appearing?

One cannot. However, cameos are irrelevant in this thread about key firsts.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:33 AM, trademarkcomics said:

Amazing Spider-Man #299 is the "First appearance of Venom"

I've never seen anybody spell 'fourth' that way before. Is it a regional thing?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:05 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Can we call those ‘1st looks’?

We can call them ads. Because they're just ads.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:44 PM, Lazyboy said:

One cannot. However, cameos are irrelevant in this thread about key firsts.

CGC’s use of the term ‘cameo’ is absurd regardless.  You can’t make a cameo if you’ve never appeared before. 

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, WolverineX said:

If someone can't afford GSX1, then X94 is a good alternative.   Better something than nothing.

If someone who had deep pockets and buys a GSX1, X94 is next.

If someone is a run collector instead of a key collector then X-men 94 to 144 becomes their focus.   And X-94 is the most expensive book of that run.  

The first X-Men I bought off the stand was 109.  I'd been buying comics earlier in the 70s, but they didn't catch my eye until then. When I was filling in my run, GSX 1 cost more than 94 but was easier to find.  When I was filling in that run, it was helpful to a Junior High (grades 7-9) comic collector that Mile High was running those ads in comics.  Created a source for material that my LCS was either hoarding or not carrying.  I did buy back issues from my LCS including GSX 1 and 60s issues.  The GSX 1   cost $25 or so.  Can't recall but definitely less than $50. Used some Christmas money.  Not a bad investment.  My wife wants me to sell it.  But the run of IH 180, 181, 182, GSX 1, and 94-144 (plus all appearances of that era) was my proudest collecting accomplishment prior to starting H.S.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:32 PM, Lazyboy said:

 

 

 Wendigo is a villainous monster created by a curse, not Alpha Flight's Sasquatch.

 

Ouch!  That correction hurt.  Maybe I should go back and read these things instead of trusting my memory from 40 years ago (no one reads 180, 181 and 182 more than once, they are terrible comics).

 

[WolverineX]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Ouch!  That correction hurt.  Maybe I should go back and read these things instead of trusting my memory from 40 years ago (no one reads 180, 181 and 182 more than once, they are terrible comics).

 

Yes, they are but X-men 94-144 are still superb.  

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:42 PM, WolverineX said:

Yes, they are but X-men 94-144 are still superb.  

It's a run that gets progressively better and better throughout.

[trademarkcomics]

Let me clarify that I do not consider non-story ads as a true appearance. It has to be in-story. But an appearance is just that. They appear, no matter how brief, partial or whatever adjective you want to use. An appearance is an appearance. 

Let me reiterate this another way. If I show up to a party I am making an appearance. Even if I immediately leave.  If everyone sees me, than I have made a FULL appearance. Now, if I introduce myself and tell people about me and they witness my personality, then I have made what? An introduction. Hulk #180 is Wolverine's first FULL appearance since anyone who read the book until the end SAW him. Hulk #181, we learn about him, how he acts, how he fights, etc. We have now been introduced to him. In Hulk #182, we just see him leave the party.  

 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 5:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Let me clarify that I do not consider non-story ads as a true appearance. It has to be in-story. But an appearance is just that. They appear, no matter how brief, partial or whatever adjective you want to use. An appearance is an appearance. 

Let me reiterate this another way. If I show up to a party I am making an appearance. Even if I immediately leave.  If everyone sees me, than I have made a FULL appearance. Now, if I introduce myself and tell people about me and they witness my personality, then I have made what? An introduction. Hulk #180 is Wolverine's first FULL appearance since anyone who read the book until the end SAW him. Hulk #181, we learn about him, how he acts, how he fights, etc. We have now been introduced to him. In Hulk #182, we just see him leave the party.  

 

I'm sorry that you have no idea how stories work.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

I'm sorry that you have no idea how stories work.

Such a nice fellow you are. Surely you can make a better argument than to call me stupid. 

Regardless, I think you're just looking to fight, and I'm not interested. I'm just here to discuss the topic I put forth. So you win. Congrats! 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:53 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Such a nice fellow you are. Surely you can make a better argument than to call me stupid. 

Regardless, I think you're just looking to fight, and I'm not interested. I'm just here to discuss the topic I put forth. So you win. Congrats! 

I didn't call you stupid. I said you don't understand stories or why people care about them.