Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:22 PM, Calmics said:

Adam Warlock is way cooler than Him

I have to agree.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:22 AM, Calmics said:

Adam Warlock is way cooler than Him 

Oh, Him/Warlock is a good one...

Fantastic Four #66: 

What occurs? This issue is basically a setup issue, a prologue to the story of Him. 

CGC 6.0 Value: $175-200

CGC 9.0 Value: $800-$1000

Fantastic Four #67:

What occurs? We see Him in the Cocoon, he has a few lines in the cocoon and then he emerges("is born") on the final page. More than a cameo since the story is devoted to him, but not quite a full introduction to the character, as in we don't see much of his powers and learn very little about his character. But we do see him fully in two panels.

CGC 6.0 Value: $250-325

CGC 9.0 Value: $1000-1400

Thor #164:

What occurs? Last panel cameo of Him breaking out of the Cocoon. Since we've already seen this it's not a first anything.

CGC 6.0 Value: $50-60

CGC 9.0 Value: $175-225

Thor #165:

What occurs? First Him in action and we learn a little more about him and his powers. Most consider this his first "full" appearance, but we've already been somewhat introduced to him, so really it's just his first activity. But it's with Thor! And an awesome introductory cover! The all black cover makes high grade copies harder to find.

CGC 6.0 Value: $350-450

CGC 9.0 Value: $2000-2500

Thor #166:

What occurs? First real battle. And another great cover!

CGC 6.0 Value: $90-100

CGC 9.0 Value: $325-400

Marvel Premiere #1:

What occurs? Him once again emerges from a cocoon with a new costume, acquires the Soul Gem, and his name is changed to Warlock. 

CGC 6.0 Value: $150-250

CGC 9.0 Value: $600-800

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[Gatsby77]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Oh, Him/Warlock is a good one...

Fantastic Four #66: 

What occurs? This issue is basically a setup issue, a prologue to the story of Him. 

CGC 6.0 Value: $175-200

CGC 9.0 Value: $800-$1000

Fantastic Four #67:

What occurs? We see Him in the Cocoon, he has a few lines in the cocoon and then he emerges("is born") on the final page. More than a cameo since the story is devoted to him, but not quite a full introduction to the character, as in we don't see much of his powers and learn very little about his character. But we do see him fully in two panels.

CGC 6.0 Value: $250-325

CGC 9.0 Value: $1000-1400

Thor #164:

What occurs? Last panel cameo of Him breaking out of the Cocoon. Since we've already seen this it's not a first anything.

CGC 6.0 Value: $50-60

CGC 9.0 Value: $175-225

Thor #165:

What occurs? First Him in action and we learn a little more about him and his powers. Most consider this his first "full" appearance, but we've already been somewhat introduced to him, so really it's just his first activity. But it's with Thor! And an awesome introductory cover! The all black cover makes high grade copies harder to find.

CGC 6.0 Value: $350-450

CGC 9.0 Value: $2000-2500

Thor #166:

What occurs? First real battle. And another great cover!

CGC 6.0 Value: $90-100

CGC 9.0 Value: $325-400

Marvel Premiere #1:

What occurs? Him once again emerges from a cocoon with a new costume, acquires the Soul Gem, and his name is changed to Warlock. 

CGC 6.0 Value: $150-250

CGC 9.0 Value: $600-800

 

See? I read! 

When the Infinity Gauntlet came out, Iron Man 55 was out-of-reach for me.

But I was hooked on Warlock and bought nearly all of his pre-1993 appearances.

This is a good summary.

I never felt the need to buy FF 66-67 -- I mean, I bought them as *FF* books, but not as Warlock books. Thought the cocoon was stupid as an intro and his Him appearances might as well as have been prototypes.

For me, the key book to have was Marvel Premiere 1 - for the reasons you mentioned -- new costume, new name, soul gem - the iconic source of his powers. PLUS the black cover made it really hard-to-find in grade - I eventually picked up CGC copies in 7.0, 9.0 and 9.6.

I think the overall story arc of MP 1-2, Warlock 1-8, Strange Tales 178-181 & Warlock 9-15 is one of the best of the Bronze Age.

[Ken Aldred]

Vacuous Charles Atlas / Adonis clone or the later deeply-characterised, psychologically complex, intense, nihilistic and cosmic level entity.
 

Tough choice.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:50 PM, Gatsby77 said:

For me, the key book to have was Marvel Premiere 1 - for the reasons you mentioned -- new costume, new name, soul gem - the iconic source of his powers

Absolutely. And some of Gil Kane’s best ever artwork. Great book.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Vacuous Charles Atlas / Adonis clone or the later deeply-characterised, psychologically complex, intense, nihilistic and cosmic level entity.
 

Tough choice.

Many characters start out as lame("vacuous") retreads but are fleshed out and made more original by later writers.

Need I mention this guy?

 

No matter how derivative the Rob Liefeld Deadpool was(Deathstroke, Wolverine and Spider-Man mashup), New Mutants #98 will always be worth way more than Deadpool #1 by Joe Kelly.

[trademarkcomics]

 

Some additions to my list. A few came from feedback in this thread so I thank all who contributed! 

6. X-Men #134

 What is it a "first" of? The first appearance of "Dark" Phoenix.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Well, it has been well established that the Phoenix Force was up to no good from the very beginning, stealing Jean Grey's body and so forth. So, the first appearance of the Phoenix Force was years earlier, hence the events of #134/135 amounts to nothing more than a costume color change and adding the word "Dark" to her name.

 My comments: This book was popular back when they announced they were revisiting the Phoenix storyline in the Dark Phoenix film, but we all know how that went(the musical score is excellent however). Time to move on.

7. Incredible Hulk #234

 What is it a "first" of? The first "appearance" of Quasar!!!

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because Wendell Vaughn had appeared in many issues before wearing the same costume and possessing the same powers under the monikers Marvel Boy and Marvel Man.

 My comments: This one is hilarious. As we get closer to the release of Quantumania and a character called "Quaz"(who may or may not be based on Quasar), this book has had lots of interest. But really, it's a cameo in every sense of the word and he simply shouts "Call me Quasar!" as he flies off. Wow. Yet the next issue he appears in(Marvel Two-In-One #53) is cheap cheap cheap, when it is not only the first book truly devoted to Wendell Vaughn the character, it even has Quasar in the title(and an awesome Byrne/Sinnott cover)!

 

8. Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134

 What is it a "first" of? The first appearance of Darkseid.

 Why is it an overrated "first"?  While we see his face and he's called by name, his appearance is on a TV screen.

 My comments: I included this one due to many references to it by members of this forum. While I still consider this a first appearance, it baffles me why Forever People #1 isn't worth more than it is since we actually see him “in person”(it has been holding its value better than JO #134 of late, however). This immediately makes me think of Amazing Spider-Man #360. Which leads into the next book on our list...

9. Amazing Spider-Man #361

 What is it a "first" of? The first “appearance” of Carnage.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Unlike Jimmy Olsen #134's Darkseid's one-panel appearance on a monitor, in the issue before this in a page solely devoted to Carnage, we actually see half of his face, he kills someone and calls himself Carnage, yet it's worth $10 raw and really not that sought after.

 My comments: Jimmy Olsen #134 CGC 9.0 value: $600.00, Forever People #1 CGC 9.0 value: $350.00. Amazing Spider-Man #360 CGC 9.6 value: $60.00, #361 CGC 9.6 value: $175.00. Need I say more?

 

10. Marvel Collectible Classics Spider-Man #1(AKA “Amazing Spider-Man #300 Chromium”)

 What is it a "first" of? A “variant cover” of the first “full” appearance of Venom.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? This came out 10 years after Amazing Spider-Man #300 was published.

 My comments: It's a REPRINT. NOT a variant cover. 'Nuff said. Best option for an ASM #300 "variant" is a newsstand, that's it folks. No Canadian, no Mark Jewelers and sorry, no Chromium.

 

10a. Marvel Collectible Classics Spider-Man #2(AKA Spider-Man #1 Chromium”)

 What is it a "first" of? A “variant cover” of the first issue of Spider-Man by Todd McFarlane.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? This came out 8 years after Spider-Man #1 was published.

 My comments: As mentioned above, this is a REPRINT. NOT a variant cover. Go get the Platinum or Gold UPC variant covers over this travesty of comic book collecting.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:43 PM, trademarkcomics said:

in the issue before this in a page solely devoted to Carnage, we actually see half of his face, he kills someone and calls himself Carnage,

For reference

[JC25427N]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:41 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

For reference

Editor must have been sleeping in that day, last panel should read "First Victim of Carnage in Cameo"

 

Spoiler

 

[Kramerica]

Avengers #196 is way overvalued. I'm not sure why people are still paying big money for it.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:09 AM, Kramerica said:

Avengers #196 is way overvalued. I'm not sure why people are still paying big money for it.

George. Perez. 

[Axelrod]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:09 AM, Kramerica said:

Avengers #196 is way overvalued. I'm not sure why people are still paying big money for it.

Hey, Taskmaster is cool.  Even if the movie did completely botch the character.  

Also, I don't think the book is even worth all that much, relatively speaking, and has been dropping hard like a lot of other similarly aged books.  Hard to see how it could be "way" overvalued.  

/person who owns two copies of this book.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/31/2023 at 3:24 PM, Axelrod said:

On 1/31/2023 at 10:09 AM, Kramerica said:

Avengers #196 is way overvalued. I'm not sure why people are still paying big money for it.

Hey, Taskmaster is cool.  Even if the movie did completely botch the character.  

Also, I don't think the book is even worth all that much, relatively speaking, and has been dropping hard like a lot of other similarly aged books.  Hard to see how it could be "way" overvalued.  

/person who owns two copies of this book.  

I agree. I thought he was underutilized back when, so I bought some moderns, namely all new Wolverine featuring x23, her "ongoing", first one I read was #2, and low and behold taskmaster cameo last page haha.

Precious Memories #irony

Edited January 31, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[catch21]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:42 AM, Lazyboy said:

It's the first appearance of the new team.

So what? You want to talk overrated? (Over)Valuing an issue just because it's a #1 is

Well, it was at the time, but that's the thing about first chronological continuity appearances...

Yes, this one is actually overrated because people are stupid, don't understand dates, and far too often refer to this as the first appearance of the costume.

No, it's the first full appearance. It's an issue that somebody who actually cares about Gambit would want to read, unlike the Annual.

Well, technically, at least after he and Storm are introduced to the story.

That's... putting it mildly.

Yes. ASM 238 is all about Hobgoblin (and Peter's life because it's still an issue of ASM, duh). Hulk 180 is all about Hulk and Wendigo.

No, and the claim that we only see him on one splash page in 238 is false.

Based on this and #3, you definitely are. Some people, on the other hand, actually understand storytelling.

Not only that, but they didn't even come out before Hulk 181. Still, isn't it interesting that Marvel's ad for their great new character, Wolverine, is for Hulk 181 and not Hulk 180?

You are talking to someone who does not want to learn comic book terminology. That's why OP is confused.
There are 4 categories:
Predates=Any ad or promotion, or preview(not orignal art or taken from the original book)
1st appearance=  Use the Scott Lang test. 3 panels or more where you can view the characters face. It is full appearance that has NO 1st cameo appearance published. It can be a Preview with original art only published in the preview.
1st appearance in Cameo=  2 face panels or less. The panels can have unlimited amount body parts.
1st Full Appearance =needs a 1st appearance in cameo published before has 3 panels or more where you can view the characters face.


Due to publishing decisions unknown to Chris Claremont.There are outliers to these categories like Gambit and Rogue that were published out of continuity.
Are there books mislabeled? Yup, a lot. Unfortutantly, the majority market likes to own the books and trust wikis than to check by reading what's inside the issue and not challenge mistakes. If it is caught early enough, it can be fixed. Some can't like Killer croc, Magik, Jason Todd, and James Rhodes.
Everything you said is spot on.

Edited February 3, 2023 by catch21

[Readcomix]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:02 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Many characters start out as lame("vacuous") retreads but are fleshed out and made more original by later writers.

Need I mention this guy?

 

No matter how derivative the Rob Liefeld Deadpool was(Deathstroke, Wolverine and Spider-Man mashup), New Mutants #98 will always be worth way more than Deadpool #1 by Joe Kelly.

You left out Daffy Duck. The guy is basically a dash of Looney Tunes in the Marvel Universe, breaking the fourth wall etc.

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:49 AM, catch21 said:

You are talking to someone who does not want to learn comic book terminology. That's why OP is confused.
There are 4 categories:
Predates=Any ad or promotion, or preview(not orignal art or taken from the original book)
1st appearance=  Use the Scott Lang test. 3 panels or more where you can view the characters face. It is full appearance that has NO 1st cameo appearance published. It can be a Preview with original art only published in the preview.
1st appearance in Cameo=  2 face panels or less. The panels can have unlimited amount body parts.
1st Full Appearance =needs a 1st appearance in cameo published before has 3 panels or more where you can view the characters face.
 

I've been doing this for 30+ years. I know comic book terminology. I'm saying it was flawed from moment one, and needs to be updated. That's how society evolves, by fixing flaws and progressing. You may be initiated into the flawed terminology, but those who enter into into this grand pursuit green are not and they are the ones who are confused and/or misled by it(not me or you).

To those who don't know comic book terminology:

1st appearance=  First time we see a character.
1st appearance in Cameo=  A part of the character is seen or perhaps behind the scenes(or a head on a tv screen).
1st Full Appearance = First time a character is seen in full.

And make no mistake, the industry needs new collectors to keep it going. I know if I were new and paid $10,000 for  Hulk #181, I'd be pretty mad and/or turned off on comic collecting if I were to find out he actually made his first full appearance(by Webster's definition, not by "comic book terminology") the issue before. Oh and wait, there's more! There was also a prototype that "predates" both appearances in Foom #2! So why did I just spend the 10k it took me forever to save for his third appearance(his perception, not yours or mine since we know better)???

Now, if the terminology is changed and we started to value a character's "introductory issue" more than when he's first seen that would fix it, right? 

 

Disclaimer: I know this is going nowhere. This is like trying to tell the NFL that concussions would be eliminated if we took hitting out of the game entirely. It's never going to happen. I'm just trying to demonstrate how flawed the appearance terminology is.

Edited February 3, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[Gatsby77]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:43 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 

 My comments: As mentioned above, this is a REPRINT. NOT a variant cover. Go get the Platinum or Gold UPC variant covers over this travesty of comic book collecting.

 

But like...both the Platinum and Gold UPC are reprints as well.

Literally - the Platinum came out a few months later, as did the Gold, UPC Wal-Mart version or Direct.

I mean - I agree with you - I have no desire to own the "Marvel Collectibles Classics" or whatever they're called, but even as reprints they're no less legit than the Silver Age 1966 Golden Record Reprints or the Platinum or Gold Spidey # 1s.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Gatsby77

[catch21]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:44 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I've been doing this for 30+ years. I know comic book terminology. I'm saying it was flawed from moment one, and needs to be updated. That's how society evolves, by fixing flaws and progressing. You may be initiated into the flawed terminology, but those who enter into into this grand pursuit green are not and they are the ones who are confused and/or misled by it(not me or you).

To those who don't know comic book terminology:

1st appearance=  First time we see a character.
1st appearance in Cameo=  A part of the character is seen or perhaps behind the scenes(or a head on a tv screen).
1st Full Appearance = First time a character is seen in full.

And make no mistake, the industry needs new collectors to keep it going. I know if I were new and paid $10,000 for  Hulk #181, I'd be pretty mad and/or turned off on comic collecting if I were to find out he actually made his first full appearance(by Webster's definition, not by "comic book terminology") the issue before. Oh and wait, there's more! There was also a prototype that "predates" both appearances in Foom #2! So why did I just spend the 10k it took me forever to save for his third appearance(his perception, not yours or mine since we know better)???

Now, if the terminology is changed and we started to value a character's "introductory issue" more than when he's first seen that would fix it, right? 

 

Disclaimer: I know this is going nowhere. This is like trying to tell the NFL that concussions would be eliminated if we took hitting out of the game entirely. It's never going to happen. I'm just trying to demonstrate how flawed the appearance terminology is.

My bad, I should have been specific. The terminology I am using is how graded copies label. The terminalogy you used is correct for nongraded books and how collectors defined books prior to the graded companies.

For graded companies we can't change their terminology because too many books have been graded using the 4 categories listed above  According to the graded companies, you can't label a  book "1st full appearance" without a previous book"1st cameo appearance". A charactar with first full appearance without a 1st appearance cameo is labeled "1st appearance". Gambit though seems like a mix-up in terminology with old school collectors, new collectors and graded companies with how X-men annual 10 and Uncanny 266 should be labeled due to a publish mix up vs continuity.

If I were to guess, in the beginning of CGC they were using the collectors terminology but later switched to the 4 categories when new collectors discovered characters were published prior.


You are right. We have too many ways how appearances are defined. It is confusing. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by catch21

[Lazyboy]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:25 PM, Gatsby77 said:

But like...both the Platinum and Gold UPC are reprints as well.

Literally - the Platinum came out a few months later, as did the Gold, UPC Wal-Mart version or Direct.

I mean - I agree with you - I have no desire to own the "Marvel Collectibles Classics" or whatever they're called, but even as reprints they're no less legit than the Silver Age 1966 Golden Record Reprints or the Platinum or Gold Spidey # 1s.

The Gold is, of course, the second printing of the issue, but is the Platinum a reprint or was it just sent out later?

Then again, why are we discussing any of these books, none of which are key firsts, in this thread?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/31/2023 at 4:24 PM, Axelrod said:

On 1/31/2023 at 11:09 AM, Kramerica said:

Avengers #196 is way overvalued. I'm not sure why people are still paying big money for it.

Hey, Taskmaster is cool.  Even if the movie did completely botch the character.  

Also, I don't think the book is even worth all that much, relatively speaking, and has been dropping hard like a lot of other similarly aged books.  Hard to see how it could be "way" overvalued.  

/person who owns two copies of this book.  

Yup.  Great book.  The spec junkies are just pissed that the MCU ruined it.