Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:34 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Yes, if you've read this thread and understand it, you would see how what you ask is out of place and has been debunked in great detail.

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but it "could mean" 1st chronological in order meat for an appearance?

And the world for that? Is called an "origin issue!" That doesn't make it chronological in real world appearance, except Spider-Man finding the symbiote firstly in sw8 that is just an origin issue. Meanwhile people who read symbiote issues in the real world had months full of seeing an symbiote appearance before sw8. Lol

It's bewitched how it always gets advertised as a 1st, because it is an origin people get confused idk. Onky way "I can understand" to put it straight every time I read it

 

The difference is that SW 8 is the first appearance in Marvel continuity.  ASM 252 doesn’t actually happen until SW 1-12 concludes.  Spidey is wearing the black costume on battleworld for 5 issues before he pops back into Central Park in 252

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:44 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The difference is that SW 8 is the first appearance in Marvel continuity.  ASM 252 doesn’t actually happen until SW 1-12 concludes.  Spidey is wearing the black costume on battleworld for 5 issues before he pops back into Central Park in 252

Again that's a reading order. Unless you live in a comic book?

[Gatsby77]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:44 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The difference is that SW 8 is the first appearance in Marvel continuity.  ASM 252 doesn’t actually happen until SW 1-12 concludes.  Spidey is wearing the black costume on battleworld for 5 issues before he pops back into Central Park in 252

Right.

Exactly like how...Wolverine and Sabretooth first meet (in comics) in X-Men # 211 or 212.

But a few years later we learn they "first met" in Wolverine # 10.

And a few years after that we actually learn they knew other as kids, in Origin # 1.

I haven't been keeping up on the last 20 years of Wolverine, so maybe there's since been an issue showing they *actually* first met as toddlers that's supplanted those.

[ADAMANTIUM]

I lived in Dallas in the 80's therefore the 1st possible time I could see a black costume was in several different books, such as web of Spider-man or asm 252, having the revelation that its a symbiote in asm 258.

That's why cgc labels it 1st black costume in asm 252, because we don't live in a comic and "reading order has nothing to do with actual time tables ie 1st 2nd 3rd appearances etc

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:48 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Right.

Exactly like how...Wolverine and Sabretooth first meet (in comics) in X-Men # 211 or 212.

But a few years later we learn they "first met" in Wolverine # 10.

And a few years after that we actually learn they knew other as kids, in Origin # 1.

I haven't been keeping up on the last 20 years of Wolverine, so maybe there's since been an issue showing they *actually* first met as toddlers that's supplanted those.

You do realize it's fiction and can be retconned at anytime? Just double checking, as I'm sure your appearances in the way you describe them will change before cgcs. Yet thats another place where in lies confusion, for I know a LCS owner who tries to clarify things for sale saying, "we can argue over firsts all day long." Its fun for sure, just seems trivial especially when people seriously give away this emoji  

All good

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:44 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The difference is that SW 8 is was the first appearance in Marvel continuity.  ASM 252 doesn’t actually happen until SW 1-12 concludes.  Spidey is wearing the black costume on battleworld for 5 issues before he pops back into Central Park in 252

Fixed. Again, the problem with first chronological continuity appearances is that they can be changed many times with sequences or stories that take place in the past.

On 1/23/2023 at 8:48 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Right.

Exactly like how...Wolverine and Sabretooth first meet (in comics) in X-Men # 211 or 212.

But a few years later we learn they "first met" in Wolverine # 10.

And a few years after that we actually learn they knew other as kids, in Origin # 1.

I haven't been keeping up on the last 20 years of Wolverine, so maybe there's since been an issue showing they *actually* first met as toddlers that's supplanted those.

Exactly.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:44 PM, Gatsby77 said:

I refuse to consider X-Force 11 the "first Domino."

So do I, since it's a blatant lie from illiterate insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. She appears in X-Force 8.

On 1/23/2023 at 8:44 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Other pet peeve?

Characters who don't actually appear in books.

Key examples are Werewolf by Night # 37 - Moon Knight's on the cover, but he's not in the book.

Ditto Hulk # 359. Wolverine's on the cover, but he's not in the book.

Yeah, don't even get me started on illusions, shapeshifters, robots, etc. Luckily, they have little or nothing to do with this thread.

I started a thread about that topic (what actually is an appearance) once, but it didn't go anywhere.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:48 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Right.

Exactly like how...Wolverine and Sabretooth first meet (in comics) in X-Men # 211 or 212.

But a few years later we learn they "first met" in Wolverine # 10.

And a few years after that we actually learn they knew other as kids, in Origin # 1.

I haven't been keeping up on the last 20 years of Wolverine, so maybe there's since been an issue showing they *actually* first met as toddlers that's supplanted those.

Except that SW 8 is nothing like that 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:14 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Except that SW 8 is nothing like that 

It's not exactly the same, but it's still an earlier continuity appearance published later.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:18 PM, Lazyboy said:

It's not exactly the same, but it's still an earlier continuity appearance published later.

It’s not the same at all.  

There’s no retcon involved.  Unless you’re suggesting that the writers didn’t know where the costume came from when 252 came out. 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:22 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

It’s not the same at all.  

There’s no retcon involved.  Unless you’re suggesting that the writers didn’t know where the costume came from when 252 came out. 

You know "retcon" is slang for retroactive continuity, right? Continuity is what is shown in chronological order. Filling in the blanks of (or modifying) the past is the literal definition of retroactive continuity.

[Jesse-Lee]

Should ASM 258 be first Venom?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:35 PM, Lazyboy said:

You know "retcon" is slang for retroactive continuity, right? Continuity is what is shown in chronological order. Filling in the blanks of (or modifying) the past is the literal definition of retroactive continuity.

As I said....

Was the origin of the costume a blank when ASM 252 came out?   I’ve always assumed SW was already written, but thinking about it now....I have no idea. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:39 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Should ASM 258 be first Venom?

Yup

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:39 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

As I said....

Was the origin of the costume a blank when ASM 252 came out?   I’ve always assumed SW was already written, but thinking about it now....I have no idea. 

If Alan Moore had written both MSHSW and ASM at that time, I would believe that every detail was known in advance. MSHSW would also actually be good, but that's a different point. As is, the major status quo changes caused by MSHSW were obviously planned in advance, but I doubt the same is true of all the details.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:39 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Should ASM 258 be first Venom?

The symbiote is not Venom. Peter Parker and the symbiote are not Venom. Eddie Brock and the symbiote are Venom.

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/23/2023 at 7:39 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Should ASM 258 be first Venom?

ASM #258(1st symbiote reveal)...and Web of Spider-Man #1(the first battle with the symbiote and the lead-in to Eddie Brock getting the costume) are very undervalued. Wait, that gives me an idea for another thread...nahhhhh, I think I've started enough trouble with this one! 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:55 PM, Lazyboy said:

The symbiote is not Venom. Peter Parker and the symbiote are not Venom. Eddie Brock and the symbiote are Venom.

What are Peter Parker & the symbiote? 

[Axelrod]

The thing about SW #8, which I guess everyone knows but no one is mentioning, is that it represented the "answer" to the "mystery" of where that Black Suit came from.  Like, it was the single biggest piece of hype from that whole storyline.  The Secret Wars literally happened in-between regular issues of the comics, and you were supposed to wonder WTF happened, and get excited to read about it later. So, it makes some amount of sense for that issue specifically to have interest.  Even if it's not the "first" appearance of the suit in comic books. 

Should that be valuable?  As much as any comic "should" be valuable.  It's not like it's thousands of dollars either.

[Jesse-Lee]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:55 PM, Lazyboy said:

The symbiote is not Venom. Peter Parker and the symbiote are not Venom. Eddie Brock and the symbiote are Venom.

Isn't the symbiote sentient? Is Dylan Venom? What about Flash Thompson?

And most importantly, what about Topher Grace?