PDidds Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Q to CGC -- so ALEX ROSS is authorized by CGC to witness his own signature (and submit books to get slabbed then sell at his store) -- can we submit books to this CGC signing event that Alex Ross signed & sold through his store with a COA or sold through Dynamic Forces etc with a COA ? It just seems counter intuitive that ARoss can sign a stack of books while watching television in his loungeroom, have one of his art agents, or other assistants pack and mail the books to CGC for slabbing - and yet something the consumer of Alex Ross' own online store has paid a premium for (a certified signature with a COA) - can't find a way to be "verified / witnessed" at the CGC signing.and have these books slabbed. I'm not talking about random books signed at a convention etc -- just the books signed by Ross, with a COA, that Ross charged a premium for at retail. A simple note on the yellow label "signature with COA - VERIFIED by Alex Ross on date" would maintain the integrity of the Signature Series program. Kerdese 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 From my perspective, Alex Ross' page and store function as a business entity. That chain from Alex to shipping all function under the same umbrella, so effectively there's no break in the chain of custody. You're not part of the chain of custody, thus, it's broken when you receive it. Now of course, what happens if you order a book and have it sent directly to an authorized witness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDidds Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 3:38 PM, ExNihilo said: From my perspective, Alex Ross' page and store function as a business entity. That chain from Alex to shipping all function under the same umbrella, so effectively there's no break in the chain of custody. You're not part of the chain of custody, thus, it's broken when you receive it. Now of course, what happens if you order a book and have it sent directly to an authorized witness? But the completely made up "chain of custody" is indeed protected by the enclosed coa WHEN Alex Ross verifies the signature of the ARStore book is his. Alex not verifying his own signature accompanied by his own COA in the affirmative completely invalidates all COAs he's ever sold. The YELLOW LABEL is for a "witnessed" signature - and since Ross is allowed to witness his own signature -- AR Store Book + AR self witnessed Signature + COA + Alex Ross @ CGC event verifying = Everything Is Okay with the CGC Police and their completely made up rules they bend and flex all the time. CGC and Alex Ross are just leaving money on the table by not allowing this. For Alex - its a double cash grab. He got money for the original Store book signature and now he gets it again and doesn't even have to sign the book. It'd be funny to submit one to get signed -- the Yellow Label with a Green Qualified banner --- "SIGNED BY ALEX ROSS ON date AND NAME 'ALEX ROSS" WRITTEN ON COVER IN IDENTICAL MANNER TO ALEX ROSS' WITNESSED SIGNATURE ACCOMPANIED BY COA FROM ALEX ROSS" LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 No, because as soon as the book is delivered to you, there's no guarantee that the book hasn't been changed or tampered with. Some creators (like JSC) will have the holographic tamper sticker, but I have to imagine there are ways to circumvent that. On 2/27/2023 at 9:59 PM, PDidds said: The YELLOW LABEL is for a "witnessed" signature - and since Ross is allowed to witness his own signature -- AR Store Book + AR self witnessed Signature + COA + Alex Ross @ CGC event verifying The key point is highlighted in bold. Verified carries less certainty than Witnessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDidds Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 6:29 PM, ExNihilo said: No, because as soon as the book is delivered to you, there's no guarantee that the book hasn't been changed or tampered with. Some creators (like JSC) will have the holographic tamper sticker, but I have to imagine there are ways to circumvent that. The key point is highlighted in bold. Verified carries less certainty than Witnessed. I think you're missing my point deliberately - because you've drunk the CGC yellow KoolAid. Alex Ross, like many many others, is authorized to witness their own signature. By having Alex look at a COA accompanied book from his store -- he's not simply verifying the signature as authentic -- the COA does that -- he's verifying that he WITNESSED it. Nothing else factors in. If I'm at a convention and I have a witness with me when a book gets signed, it gets put into a bag and sealed. Lets suppose one book in my stack gets missed. Simple human error. So I present my books to the CGC booth later in the day and we discover one book not bagged. CGC would call the witness over and he'd verify he was the witness for that signing and all is good. The heavens don't crack open and start raining blood - CGC simply knows it's all legit and the integrity of their Yellow Label brand is intact. The same here. COA accompanied books sent to artists/writers who CGC have authorized to witness their own signature - should be allowed. Jimmy Linguini 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivdyer Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 4:29 PM, PDidds said: I think you're missing my point deliberately - because you've drunk the CGC yellow KoolAid. Alex Ross, like many many others, is authorized to witness their own signature. By having Alex look at a COA accompanied book from his store -- he's not simply verifying the signature as authentic -- the COA does that -- he's verifying that he WITNESSED it. Nothing else factors in. If I'm at a convention and I have a witness with me when a book gets signed, it gets put into a bag and sealed. Lets suppose one book in my stack gets missed. Simple human error. So I present my books to the CGC booth later in the day and we discover one book not bagged. CGC would call the witness over and he'd verify he was the witness for that signing and all is good. The heavens don't crack open and start raining blood - CGC simply knows it's all legit and the integrity of their Yellow Label brand is intact. The same here. COA accompanied books sent to artists/writers who CGC have authorized to witness their own signature - should be allowed. Its a moot point, one that has been discussed at length in other threads throughout the years. Those are the rules set forth by CGC and until they change them these discussions are wrought with frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron C. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/27/2023 at 11:32 PM, PDidds said: Q to CGC -- so ALEX ROSS is authorized by CGC to witness his own signature (and submit books to get slabbed then sell at his store) -- can we submit books to this CGC signing event that Alex Ross signed & sold through his store with a COA or sold through Dynamic Forces etc with a COA ? It just seems counter intuitive that ARoss can sign a stack of books while watching television in his loungeroom, have one of his art agents, or other assistants pack and mail the books to CGC for slabbing - and yet something the consumer of Alex Ross' own online store has paid a premium for (a certified signature with a COA) - can't find a way to be "verified / witnessed" at the CGC signing.and have these books slabbed. I'm not talking about random books signed at a convention etc -- just the books signed by Ross, with a COA, that Ross charged a premium for at retail. A simple note on the yellow label "signature with COA - VERIFIED by Alex Ross on date" would maintain the integrity of the Signature Series program. Any artist can send a signed book or sketch cover to CGC and get a yellow label. The book has to come directly from the artist and must be accompanied by the appropriate CGC Creator's form This has been done for years and still fits in with "chain of custody". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatlab123 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 If you go to sdcc and go to J.Scott Campbell booth ..you can buy a already signed book ..say you want to cgc it ..they place it in a sealed bag and you take over to cgc . I guess it’s the same thing right Foolish Mortal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDidds Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 3/1/2023 at 10:44 AM, fatlab123 said: If you go to sdcc and go to J.Scott Campbell booth ..you can buy a already signed book ..say you want to cgc it ..they place it in a sealed bag and you take over to cgc . I guess it’s the same thing right I know, right ! So much for the "chain of custody" argument. I bought a Spider-Man book this year from the JSC booth - doing just that. Never even met JSC. Now the "Chain of Custody" people will say "the book never left the business" or some b.s. like that. It's all just random made-up-on-the-fly rules to add a perceived value to the yellow label. The frustrating thing is, CGC breaks their own rules all the time -- but given a situation like this where Alex Ross sold books from his store with COAs -- it just seems less of a "rule break" --- it's more of a "this is okay, because...1 2 and 3 are met..." I had books signed by Neal Adams for years at conventions -- then I found out the Neal Adams store could submit books to CGC and I didn't have to wait for signing events or witnessed signings etc. So I literally sent a decade worth of signed books to the NA store - they sent them in to CGC. BAM! done. I had signed NA books submitted by his store AFTER he died. Crazy! But we can't submit COA Alex Ross books to CGC....?! Dumb Foolish Mortal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 2:29 PM, PDidds said: I think you're missing my point deliberately - because you've drunk the CGC yellow KoolAid. Far from it. Ever since the number of CGC errors has piled up over the last 3 years, I've been much more critical of them. If you want a verified label, there's some guys across the street who will do that for you. But there's a video out there of someone submitting forged signatures to "the other company" to see if they would successfully catch and identify them. They failed. The books came back with yellow labels. That in turn makes me question the validity of every other book of theirs that carries that yellow label. You could in theory have some unscrupulous individual who's really good at forging signatures and who can re-seal books put a bunch of fakes out there. Is it far-fetched? Sure. But it's that sort of strict adherence to some rigid rules that makes the CGC program better than their competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobotski Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 I doubt CGC will make an exception for Alex Ross. Then you'll have to make another exception for the next artist, and the next... And yes we are all on this board drinking the CGC Kool-Aid.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyB Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 I get your frustration as i have campbell book signed from his store too.... but the point is... those are the rules they opperate under and only they can choose to violate. Cgc signature garuntee belongs to cgc, if they fudge the rules to say something is good... then its good. If they do that enough and people are upset by it, the value if the garuntee drops and they lose business. Thats just how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyB Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 Best advice. Dont buy signed books from the website... stick to signature series slabs. Costs more but saves the headaches. And if you can do the one booth walk over and get it done that way, do that as often as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Linguini Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 5:29 PM, PDidds said: I think you're missing my point deliberately - because you've drunk the CGC yellow KoolAid. Alex Ross, like many many others, is authorized to witness their own signature. By having Alex look at a COA accompanied book from his store -- he's not simply verifying the signature as authentic -- the COA does that -- he's verifying that he WITNESSED it. Nothing else factors in. If I'm at a convention and I have a witness with me when a book gets signed, it gets put into a bag and sealed. Lets suppose one book in my stack gets missed. Simple human error. So I present my books to the CGC booth later in the day and we discover one book not bagged. CGC would call the witness over and he'd verify he was the witness for that signing and all is good. The heavens don't crack open and start raining blood - CGC simply knows it's all legit and the integrity of their Yellow Label brand is intact. The same here. COA accompanied books sent to artists/writers who CGC have authorized to witness their own signature - should be allowed. What? No. Alex Ross's online store is run by a company that also has CGC witnesses. Does he witness his own signature? No. Can you submit books to CGC with a Alex Ross COA? No. Once books are out of the artists possession they can no longer be graded with a yellow label- that's where the J Scott Campbell thing comes from - you can buy from his booth at shows WITH a CGC witness but you can't buy the books from the J Scott Campbell booth and submit them yourself - you need to have a CGC witness with you. Hope that clears that up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatlab123 Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 On 3/3/2023 at 4:57 AM, Foolish Mortal! said: Not even close Yes last sdcc the guys running the booth would put the book in a sealed bag for cgc yellow label not the Mylar and sticker ..a plastic bag with a seal .. if it was done by mistake sure …I wasn’t going to cgc it but I didn’t have a witness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNihilo Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 On 3/3/2023 at 11:04 PM, fatlab123 said: Yes last sdcc the guys running the booth would put the book in a sealed bag for cgc yellow label not the Mylar and sticker ..a plastic bag with a seal .. if it was done by mistake sure …I wasn’t going to cgc it but I didn’t have a witness I think you misinterpreted the emoji. I don't think he was saying that CGC sealed bags weren't a thing at cons. I think he was saying that equating that with mail order COA books subsequently sent to CGC is what's "not even close". Or at least that was my interpretation. ivdyer, fatlab123 and Jimmy Linguini 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
