The Day After. The Brutal Betrayal of the fast flip. 3 3

[grapeape]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:47 AM, Sideshow Bob said:

I'll provide the flip side of these stories.

I made offers of increasing amounts each year for several years on a splash page. Not for a museum or my kids' nursery, but at the time, I was virtually cornering the market on this one particular artist and this splash was a big get for me once the seller finally agreed to another jump in my offer. Two years later, after realizing I had amassed something like a hundred interior pages by the artist, I took stock of my collection and realized that my tastes had evolved and that "more" didn't necessarily mean "better". I trimmed that pile down dramatically to just a couple key pages and sequences, but in that selling process, the splash was sold at auction. I paid over FMV at the time that I bought it (a record for a splash...), and I never built in a sob story, but there is no denying that I extracted a key piece from a collection and within a matter of years it was placed in a public auction (where I took all the risk on it underperforming).

Should I feel like I did the seller a disservice? Objectively, there is a purchase and there is a sale, but its not a flip per se... Is it a better fact pattern that it went to auction and they had the right to buy it back at FMV (and possibly lower than what they sold it for)?

Bob

No Bob. That's why I titled this thread The Day After. Just to drive home that feeling of letting something go and seeing that the person that begged you for it is selling it immediately. I certainly wouldn't consider two years later a flip. Sometimes it's important to the seller to know why you want a page. They want to make sure you're not acting like a dealer. Other sellers could care less. 90% of what I buy is meant to be kept long term. My CAF and my private, unshown collection reflect that. But I think nearly all reasonable collectors understand art is bought and sold for whatever reasons, regardless of time. I do think tact and ethics go a long way towards sparing feelings and keeping this fun. 

[comix4fun]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:09 PM, grapeape said:

No Bob. That's why I titled this thread The Day After. Just to drive home that feeling of letting something go and seeing that the person that begged you for it is selling it immediately.

No doubt....it's then "instant" portion of the story that removes doubt that the sob story/soft soap/flattery/apple polishing was all BS.

There are TONS of these stories out there on the comic side. Including one famous one that happened right here on the Boards with a high grade Marvel book that the buyer weaseled a lower price on the book because he'd always wanted a copy and it was his favorite book, etc etc.  then paid for it, waited a beat, and then asked the guy he bought it from to drop-ship it to CLINK. 

[batman_fan]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:44 PM, comix4fun said:

No doubt....it's then "instant" portion of the story that removes doubt that the sob story/soft soap/flattery/apple polishing was all BS.

There are TONS of these stories out there on the comic side. Including one famous one that happened right here on the Boards with a high grade Marvel book that the buyer weaseled a lower price on the book because he'd always wanted a copy and it was his favorite book, etc etc.  then paid for it, waited a beat, and then asked the guy he bought it from to drop-ship it to CLINK. 

My best comic story was a young kid at a show looking at a very high grade Ironman (pre-CGC).  Couldn’t even remotely afford it but it was his ultimately book.  Loved Ironman.  The dealer took pity on the kid and sold it for what the kid had (~1/2 what he was asking for on it).  Kid walked away super happy and the Dealer said to me “I just made a life long collector”.  Dealer later found out the kid immediately sold it to another dealer for a decent profit.

[comix4fun]

On 5/18/2023 at 4:03 PM, batman_fan said:

My best comic story was a young kid at a show looking at a very high grade Ironman (pre-CGC).  Couldn’t even remotely afford it but it was his ultimately book.  Loved Ironman.  The dealer took pity on the kid and sold it for what the kid had (~1/2 what he was asking for on it).  Kid walked away super happy and the Dealer said to me “I just made a life long collector”.  Dealer later found out the kid immediately sold it to another dealer for a decent profit.

Sounds like the forward to the autobiography of too many OA dealers I've met  

[RBerman]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:47 PM, Sideshow Bob said:

I'll provide the flip side of these stories.

I made offers of increasing amounts each year for several years on a splash page. Not for a museum or my kids' nursery, but at the time, I was virtually cornering the market on this one particular artist and this splash was a big get for me once the seller finally agreed to another jump in my offer. Two years later, after realizing I had amassed something like a hundred interior pages by the artist, I took stock of my collection and realized that my tastes had evolved and that "more" didn't necessarily mean "better". I trimmed that pile down dramatically to just a couple key pages and sequences, but in that selling process, the splash was sold at auction. I paid over FMV at the time that I bought it (a record for a splash...), and I never built in a sob story, but there is no denying that I extracted a key piece from a collection and within a matter of years it was placed in a public auction (where I took all the risk on it underperforming).

Should I feel like I did the seller a disservice? Objectively, there is a purchase and there is a sale, but its not a flip per se... Is it a better fact pattern that it went to auction and they had the right to buy it back at FMV (and possibly lower than what they sold it for)?

Bob

Certainly our assessments do change over time. If your original purchase was presented as, "I really want this particular page to complete the set, not just to resell in the near future," and if you had the impression that the piece held special significance for the previous owner, you might have offered him right of first refusal before sending it to auction.

[tth2]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:47 AM, Sideshow Bob said:

I'll provide the flip side of these stories.

I made offers of increasing amounts each year for several years on a splash page. Not for a museum or my kids' nursery, but at the time, I was virtually cornering the market on this one particular artist and this splash was a big get for me once the seller finally agreed to another jump in my offer. Two years later, after realizing I had amassed something like a hundred interior pages by the artist, I took stock of my collection and realized that my tastes had evolved and that "more" didn't necessarily mean "better". I trimmed that pile down dramatically to just a couple key pages and sequences, but in that selling process, the splash was sold at auction. I paid over FMV at the time that I bought it (a record for a splash...), and I never built in a sob story, but there is no denying that I extracted a key piece from a collection and within a matter of years it was placed in a public auction (where I took all the risk on it underperforming).

Should I feel like I did the seller a disservice? Objectively, there is a purchase and there is a sale, but its not a flip per se... Is it a better fact pattern that it went to auction and they had the right to buy it back at FMV (and possibly lower than what they sold it for)?

Bob

This thread isn't about flipping per se, it's about flipping where the piece was obtained under false pretenses.

But honestly, I have zero sympathy for the sellers who sold because of some sob story.  Toughen up!!!

[thethedew]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:51 AM, cstojano said:

Anyone know the current count of fantasy art museums being planned/built in the near future?

Is this really A Thing?  Claiming to represent say, a nascent comic art museum, or something?

'cause if it is, good for you!  Show me your completed 501(c)(3) application, build your organization a public website, survive a few years (with certified financial disclosures, natch), and maybe I'll consider you in my will.  Good luck!

Edited May 19, 2023 by thethedew

[grapeape]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:03 PM, batman_fan said:

My best comic story was a young kid at a show looking at a very high grade Ironman (pre-CGC).  Couldn’t even remotely afford it but it was his ultimately book.  Loved Ironman.  The dealer took pity on the kid and sold it for what the kid had (~1/2 what he was asking for on it).  Kid walked away super happy and the Dealer said to me “I just made a life long collector”.  Dealer later found out the kid immediately sold it to another dealer for a decent profit.

Sounds like he made a life time predatory dealer instead.

[thethedew]

This thread has been just as enlightening as I'd hoped.  Thanks to all who have responded, hope there's more.

My story IS from the opposite perspective, somewhat, except without all the misrepresentation.

In brief:  In hopes of triggering a trade (in which I'd been given NO promises, mind you; was a collecting rookie at the time) I convinced a well-known collector to part with a page he liked immensely.  I recall I'd caught him at a time when he DID need some cash for some home renovations, and he may have taken a little pity on me as my father had just died, and I was... so, so sad.  He was well aware that I was acquiring it for a potential trade, and that it could disappear forever.

So, in comes this pretty amazing tradebait, if not 'grail quality' then at least grail-adjacent.  Presented to my erstwhile trade partner, who promptly... turned me down flat.  As is his right, OF COURSE.  But, would you believe that I was SURPRISED?  Well, yes, I actually was.  What a silly boy I was then.

So, I proceed to hold on to supposed 'tradebait' in hopes... that Trade Target Guy would.... get this....change his mind!!   
Held on to it for years.  Checked back every couple of years, trying to not be a pest.  Nadda. no dicenero.

I think about seven years go by this way.  Original Sale Guy then, (if I recall correctly), posts on a 'one that got away' regrets thread, maybe on this very board.  And we get back in contact about the page.  I have absolutely NO doubt that he still loved the page, and honestly regretted letting it go.  And I realized a few things in a flash:

1) HE was the one who'd done ME the favor in the first place,
2) I'd FAILED in my attempts to use it for the purpose it was acquired.
3) While an impressive page with many views, it was a poor fit for my collection.
4) Why withhold the page because I'D failed.  Trade Target Guy clearly DIDN"T CARE that I had it available. But, I had the power to change MY mind, at least.

So, I sold it back to Original Sale Guy... for the same price from seven years prior.  I saw absolutely no reason to ask for more, just because time had passed.  That's my call, that's what I needed to do to be able to look myself in the mirror.

Lots of collectors who have read my posts for years are likely rolling their eyes now.  "Andrew's feeling pretty pleased with himself tonight, OMG."  And that's fair and accurate.  Bring your slings and arrows, if you like.  But...
a) I was able to use the returned cash to purchase a Michael Golden page, if I recall correctly, and
b) declining to markup the page hopefully brought me a stronger relationship with an Elder Statesman in the hobby.

It was also the beginning, I think, of my personal journey to begin to relax about what IS and ISN'T in my collection.  Funny that, the realization of my failure was what brought on the growth.  That's peace of mind that a page or cash can't buy.

Edited May 19, 2023 by thethedew

[Xatari]

I love that story. It is so important to put good out there. 

[Khazano]

As long as you make them pay "letting it go when I dont really want to tax" it should stave off the flippers. It'll only hurt if you give a bargain cause of the lie.

Ive only ever sold something cause of a sob story once. They paid double market value, and to this day, 10 years later, its still sitting in their CAF which is dedicated to the character. I feel like its where it should be. Subsequently, I've only ever pulled the sob story card once in 20 years. Me and another collector (very well known) both put in an offer for the same amount for a piece on eBay, the seller accepted his instead of mine. Fair enough. However, the buyer then instantly listed/flipped it on his CAF for 3x the sold offer. I pretty much messaged him using words I never do like "please" "If you could" "I would be so grateful" Blah blah blah. Ugh, hated myself for it, but, I also offered him a 50% profit (rather than 300%) on his investment, and he let it go. To this day, it's still in my CAF.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by Khazano

[grapeape]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:30 PM, tth2 said:

This thread isn't about flipping per se, it's about flipping where the piece was obtained under false pretenses.

But honestly, I have zero sympathy for the sellers who sold because of some sob story.  Toughen up!!!

If the Stones could have sympathy for the devil, surely, you could have a tinge of sympathy for 🍇 🦍, he of kind heart. 
 

[Benedict Judas Hel]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:30 AM, tth2 said:

Toughen up!!!

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:09 PM, grapeape said:

No Bob. That's why I titled this thread The Day After. Just to drive home that feeling of letting something go and seeing that the person that begged you for it is selling it immediately. I certainly wouldn't consider two years later a flip. Sometimes it's important to the seller to know why you want a page. They want to make sure you're not acting like a dealer. Other sellers could care less. 90% of what I buy is meant to be kept long term. My CAF and my private, unshown collection reflect that. But I think nearly all reasonable collectors understand art is bought and sold for whatever reasons, regardless of time. I do think tact and ethics go a long way towards sparing feelings and keeping this fun. 

"Fun" is important but even if it's all about the Benjamins I think it's not unreasonable to ask people not to give you a straight-up lie about why they're buying something or how much they value it at.  Guy talked me out of a page going on and on about how he would keep it forever, specifically and unequivocally and insistently saying he understood how much it was worth in the market and how much he just wanted it and would keep it forever.  Then got it from me and immediately put it on ebay for ten times what he paid me.  Same guy bought a book, paying half the money promising to pay the rest after it was certified.  It came back with removable rice paper noted and he didn't want to pay what we'd agreed.  I said fine you can send it back for a full refund.  He refused to send it back or to send the rest of the money.  Just insisted that the rules of the market were not only that a "restored" book was worth less but that the buyer could also demand the seller take whatever the buyer said it was worth and had no right to keep the book rather than sell it for that price.  I finally took him to small claims court and he cross-filed a claim that he had "lost money" because, after refusing to return it for a refund, he'd resold it for less than he'd hoped to get for it (even though he admitted he'd sold it for substantially more than he'd paid me.  His position was that as a dealer (which was not how presented himself to me) he should expect and demand an even higher return.  As it ended up I got the money he had agreed to pay in the first place, but only after months of sheer insanity, throughout all of which he not only spun numerous lies and staked ridiculous positions but also seemed to feel like he was absolutely justified, even righteous.  He'd made a lot of money buying stuff from me prior to this for much less than it was worth, and could have continued to do so, if he'd only been honest with me and hadn't treated every deal as if it was the last one he'd ever make and made every statement to me as if it need not bear any resemblance to the truth.    

Edited May 20, 2023 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Xatari]

Way too much shortsightedness in collecting. Reminds me of the old African proverb…

”If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.”

I know I have shared it before, but I have found working together with other collectors has not only created lasting friendships but also allowed us to benefit greatly from the help provide. Sure there are times it will required selflessness for the greater good in giving up a piece for another, but in the end, I feel it has benefitted me far more that I ever imagined. I hope my friends feel the same on their end. 

[tth2]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:45 AM, Xatari said:

Way too much shortsightedness in collecting. Reminds me of the old African proverb…

”If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.”

I know I have shared it before, but I have found working together with other collectors has not only created lasting friendships but also allowed us to benefit greatly from the help provide. Sure there are times it will required selflessness for the greater good in giving up a piece for another, but in the end, I feel it has benefitted me far more that I ever imagined. I hope my friends feel the same on their end. 

Screw you, hippie! 

[Xatari]

Haha! Maybe.  I do live in California. Apparently we are all blond haired and blue eyed surfers. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:56 PM, tth2 said:

Screw you, hippie! 

[Terry E. Gibbs]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:07 PM, batman_fan said:

I have one piece in my collection I bought off CAF.  The way I did is was to research all sales I could find for the artist.  I then offered the person that had the piece 3x the highest price paid to date for one of the artist pieces.

Not three times but much more than FMV for talking faces at that time, but I was making the offer and I wanted the pages. I was a newbie and it was part of my learning curve. The thing is he stuck with me and my annoying questions and taught me a huge amount, and later helped me enormously in acquiring both grail pages some that he himself wanted and other pages at below FMV from someone moving a bunch of stuff. And finally he offered me a bunch of semi key pages at less than I had paid for the talking faces 5 years before.

and of course he is a boardie here.

 

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:56 AM, Khazano said:

Ive only ever sold something cause of a sob story once.

I don't think I've ever sold anything on a sob story. I'd much rather leverage a discount and buy on a sob story from a seller who needs the money.