The Day After. The Brutal Betrayal of the fast flip. 3 3

[The Voord]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:24 PM, tth2 said:

I would never tell anyone who initiated the conversation what I had paid.  That's completely irrelevant to the deal at hand, so the only data point that's relevant is what price is he willing to offer me to get me to part with the piece of art.  

I've had people initiate contact with me about buying a piece, and when I replied that I might be willing to sell, some came back to me and asked what did I want for it.  I always replied "You contacted me, so it's kind of up to you to make an offer.  I'm not going to negotiate against myself."  That usually weeds out the game players from the serious buyers pretty quickly.

Yeah, sometimes people catch me off-guard!  

[batman_fan]

On 6/16/2023 at 10:17 PM, tth2 said:

I think the moral of the story from this thread is that it doesn't matter whether the sob story is genuine or not.  No one should sell on the basis of a sob story (true or not). 

Either you want to sell at a certain price or you don't.  If someone tries to talk you down to a lower price by using a sob story, then tell them "Sorry about that, but the price is the price".

You are way too nice Tim.  The correct way to do it is:

1.  Listen to their poor pathetic sob story

2.  Tell them "wow, that is quite the story"

3.  Raise the price 50%

[Rick2you2]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:43 PM, batman_fan said:

You are way too nice Tim.  The correct way to do it is:

1.  Listen to their poor pathetic sob story

2.  Tell them "wow, that is quite the story"

3.  Raise the price 50%

… and when they ask why you raised the price, tell them because you want it so badly, I can make more money off it.

[The Voord]

There was one time, maybe ten years ago, that I did have a positive outcome from a collector enquiring about an EC cover I owned at the time.  No sob story involved . . . just an honest enquiry.  It was a cover I was not looking to release, but was well aware of ball-park figures similar covers from the run had been fetching on HA.

I checked up on the other guy's CAF, populated by a lot of high-end art, so knew the approach was both genuine and serious.

Similar covers had been selling in the $55K range . . . which was the kind of tempting amount hinted at in my earlier posts in this thread ("Make me an offer I can't refuse!"). .

After some thought, decided such a grail-like amount of cash would trigger a sale.  I got back to the other guy and said, "I'd expect to make at least $55K in auction for this cover, but that would obviously involve HA taking a cut from any such sale.  I'll take that into account, and will be prepared to sell at $50K, if you're still interested?  It's FMV"

No haggling on price involved . . . he went for it, on something like a six-month payment plan.  Later on in the year, the other collector was visiting the UK from the USA . . . and I travelled down to London to meet-up with him and deliver the art in person.  We spent a few hours in a nearby pub 'talking art' . . . and I made a very good friend.

 

[batman_fan]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:24 AM, Rick2you2 said:

… and when they ask why you raised the price, tell them because you want it so badly, I can make more money off it.

Exactly

[grapeape]

When a dealer gets hold of a piece of art and resells It 2x3 (if we're lucky) higher than what was paid, we howl and call them scourge. 

When a well meaning collector gives another collector a break on a piece because they've identified it as something personally meaningful, then  flips it, are we howling at the shady buyer? Not all of us. Some appear to delight in the naïveté of the sap that bought the song and dance. There's no feelings of disgust for the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Interesting. I'm no sociologist, so I won't offer a certified opinion here. I'll just say interesting.

I always want to be the smartest guy in a deal. Always. That being said, because of the greedy and sometimes psychotic, predatory nature of some folks buying art low and selling sky high, I do my best to bring something else to the table. 
 

I'm no Angel. I do love the camaraderie this hobby can bring though. I value it. So if I can do something that brings a real genuine smile to someone's face, I'll do that.

If I know someone is looking for a long time for art, and I come across it, I point it out. I don't buy it and than seize upon that collector with an ungodly asking price.

If someone truly loves something I have, and I can bring them happiness by letting it go, that brings me more joy than a cold, financial transaction.

I have no problem with any sarcasm, or "you should have known better" comments left here. I really mean that. I like you all.

It's important to me that you have an important takeaway. If we've been disturbed by predatory, greedy behaviors of the usual suspects, well, don't we desire to behave better than that? 
 

I think we might be taking shots at collectors that wanted to do right by a fellow collector. I think some collectors like to feel good for both sides when they make a deal.

YouTube is full of videos where a guy for example buys 5 boxes of silver age comics, or whatever, and than goes to the subscribers with I TOTALLY STOLE/GOT OVER ON THIS RUBE/:SAP. I don't ever want to be that kind of winner. 
 

Happy Fathers Day 

 

 

[The Voord]

On 6/18/2023 at 10:45 PM, grapeape said:

When a dealer gets hold of a piece of art and resells It 2x3 (if we're lucky) higher than what was paid, we howl and call them scourge. 

When a well meaning collector gives another collector a break on a piece because they've identified it as something personally meaningful, then  flips it, are we howling at the shady buyer? Not all of us. Some appear to delight in the naïveté of the sap that bought the song and dance. There's no feelings of disgust for the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Interesting. I'm no sociologist, so I won't offer a certified opinion here. I'll just say interesting.

I always want to be the smartest guy in a deal. Always. That being said, because of the greedy and sometimes psychotic, predatory nature of some folks buying art low and selling sky high, I do my best to bring something else to the table. 
 

I'm no Angel. I do love the camaraderie this hobby can bring though. I value it. So if I can do something that brings a real genuine smile to someone's face, I'll do that.

If I know someone is looking for a long time for art, and I come across it, I point it out. I don't buy it and than seize upon that collector with an ungodly asking price.

If someone truly loves something I have, and I can bring them happiness by letting it go, that brings me more joy than a cold, financial transaction.

I have no problem with any sarcasm, or "you should have known better" comments left here. I really mean that. I like you all.

It's important to me that you have an important takeaway. If we've been disturbed by predatory, greedy behaviors of the usual suspects, well, don't we desire to behave better than that? 
 

I think we might be taking shots at collectors that wanted to do right by a fellow collector. I think some collectors like to feel good for both sides when they make a deal.

YouTube is full of videos where a guy for example buys 5 boxes of silver age comics, or whatever, and than goes to the subscribers with I TOTALLY STOLE/GOT OVER ON THIS RUBE/:SAP. I don't ever want to be that kind of winner. 
 

Happy Fathers Day 

 

 

A lot of food for thought there, Michael, good post.  

Like most here, I would imagine, I've been on both sides . . . made enquiries and received enquiries.

If I'm making an enquiry, I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is.  I will state the reason why the art is important to me and if invited to make an offer will make a decent offer at over FMV within reason!  There was one time I offered another collector 2 x FMV for a page of art from a series I was trying to put-back together but the owner wanted 10 x FMV . . . which I simply wouldn't meet (as I like to look at myself in the mirror).  I'd never go the route of a sob story . . . that just sounds like emotional blackmail.  I won't make those kind of pitches and, by the same token, don't want to receive them.

If someone approaches me with an enquiry, I take my cue from the way the pitch is worded.  If it's something I want to keep, I'll just say sorry and it's not for sale, end of story.  If it's something I might consider releasing, I'll listen.  What happens next is up to the other guy once I've advised him to make me a worthwhile offer.  As I've been in the same boat, I know that the onus is on me as a potential buyer not to ruin my chances by going the lowball route (which is disrespectful and guaranteed to close-down further discussion).

Edited June 19, 2023 by The Voord

[comix4fun]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:21 AM, The Voord said:

 

Then there was a Keif Fromm story (I've got a few of those!).  He expressed interest in wanting to buy a 1966 Steve Ditko cover  I possessed at the time.  I replied saying, "I'm not actually looking to sell this art but will listen to any tempting offer you may want to make?"  Keif got back to me saying something like, "You know this cover's not really worth that much, don't you?" . . . no doubt to pave the way for a low-ball offer . . . at which point I stopped responding to him.  

 

You only stopped a couple emails too late.  

[Rick2you2]

On 6/18/2023 at 5:45 PM, grapeape said:

When a dealer gets hold of a piece of art and resells It 2x3 (if we're lucky) higher than what was paid, we howl and call them scourge. 

When a well meaning collector gives another collector a break on a piece because they've identified it as something personally meaningful, then  flips it, are we howling at the shady buyer? Not all of us. Some appear to delight in the naïveté of the sap that bought the song and dance. There's no feelings of disgust for the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Interesting. I'm no sociologist, so I won't offer a certified opinion here. I'll just say interesting.

I always want to be the smartest guy in a deal. Always. That being said, because of the greedy and sometimes psychotic, predatory nature of some folks buying art low and selling sky high, I do my best to bring something else to the table. 
 

I'm no Angel. I do love the camaraderie this hobby can bring though. I value it. So if I can do something that brings a real genuine smile to someone's face, I'll do that.

If I know someone is looking for a long time for art, and I come across it, I point it out. I don't buy it and than seize upon that collector with an ungodly asking price.

If someone truly loves something I have, and I can bring them happiness by letting it go, that brings me more joy than a cold, financial transaction.

I have no problem with any sarcasm, or "you should have known better" comments left here. I really mean that. I like you all.

It's important to me that you have an important takeaway. If we've been disturbed by predatory, greedy behaviors of the usual suspects, well, don't we desire to behave better than that? 
 

I think we might be taking shots at collectors that wanted to do right by a fellow collector. I think some collectors like to feel good for both sides when they make a deal.

YouTube is full of videos where a guy for example buys 5 boxes of silver age comics, or whatever, and than goes to the subscribers with I TOTALLY STOLE/GOT OVER ON THIS RUBE/:SAP. I don't ever want to be that kind of winner. 
 

Happy Fathers Day 

 

 

I think it’s a matter of degree. If someone really wants something, as personally meaningful, I would be willing to go on the low end of FMV, because there is really a FMV spread for these things. Maybe a bit below FMV if I knew them, and more so if they were specialized. But, not enough to leave meat on the bone to encourage a flip. 

[alxjhnsn]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:49 PM, Bill C said:

I have a couple of comical stories like this. I might have shared this one once before: a collector of Valentino GOTG art was sent my way by a mutual acquaintance, so this collector reaches out to me. Turns out this guy had a number of interior pages, some of which were real cool. He's interested in a trade. I have a lot of Valentino GOTG art (more than him, including lots of covers). He wants a cover, and because I have a lot of them and liked some of his interiors, was willing to trade away some for a cover.

The guy tells me he's some kind of college psychology professor (I dont think he was lying). He bought the pages decades ago and hasnt collected since. He pumps me for all kinds of market info, which I educate him on freely, knowing full well it might bite me in the butt. I give this guy all kinds of OA information over weeks, lots of time typing, as I dont mind helping. Then the guy starts sending me pics of the GOTG art- but he starts playing grade school level mind games. He tries to whet my appetite by only showing me a couple pages every 24 hours or so. I dont suffer fools much and dont like grade school level mind games, but allow it to continue a little longer, as he hems and haws around cold hard numbers/trade deals. After all his art is known, he actually starts taking a number of his interior pages off the table concerning our potential trade. Keep in mind, I'm putting a cover on the table for this guy. The last straw was when this clown actually started putting my cover down price wise, when we were trading art from the same artist, same book, same era. He actually tried to tell me his interior pages (a few of them) were worth more than covers. Obviously communication was cut off at that point. 

The cool thing for me about this situation was, even though he had some really key interior pages I wanted, once I knew he went full clown, I just stopped thinking about his pages, dont bother looking at the pics of them, and couldnt care less. That was a big turning point for me when I realized I was breaking the art addiction.

Do what I do the next time. Point them here, the Pricing Comic Art thread, and tell them to read and think.  

BTW, I was at HeroesCon this past weekend and the topic of Pricing Comic Art came up. I recommended this post and the guy says, "The one Alex Johnson writes?" I had to admit that that is the one I recommended.  

Edited June 23, 2023 by alxjhnsn

[babsrocks31]

On 6/18/2023 at 2:45 PM, grapeape said:

When a dealer gets hold of a piece of art and resells It 2x3 (if we're lucky) higher than what was paid, we howl and call them scourge. 

When a well meaning collector gives another collector a break on a piece because they've identified it as something personally meaningful, then  flips it, are we howling at the shady buyer? Not all of us. Some appear to delight in the naïveté of the sap that bought the song and dance. There's no feelings of disgust for the wolf in sheep's clothing.

Interesting. I'm no sociologist, so I won't offer a certified opinion here. I'll just say interesting.

I always want to be the smartest guy in a deal. Always. That being said, because of the greedy and sometimes psychotic, predatory nature of some folks buying art low and selling sky high, I do my best to bring something else to the table. 
 

I'm no Angel. I do love the camaraderie this hobby can bring though. I value it. So if I can do something that brings a real genuine smile to someone's face, I'll do that.

If I know someone is looking for a long time for art, and I come across it, I point it out. I don't buy it and than seize upon that collector with an ungodly asking price.

If someone truly loves something I have, and I can bring them happiness by letting it go, that brings me more joy than a cold, financial transaction.

I have no problem with any sarcasm, or "you should have known better" comments left here. I really mean that. I like you all.

It's important to me that you have an important takeaway. If we've been disturbed by predatory, greedy behaviors of the usual suspects, well, don't we desire to behave better than that? 
 

I think we might be taking shots at collectors that wanted to do right by a fellow collector. I think some collectors like to feel good for both sides when they make a deal.

YouTube is full of videos where a guy for example buys 5 boxes of silver age comics, or whatever, and than goes to the subscribers with I TOTALLY STOLE/GOT OVER ON THIS RUBE/:SAP. I don't ever want to be that kind of winner. 
 

Happy Fathers Day 

 

 

What a wonderful post ... There has to be some weight put into making a good deal with someone that also makes you both happy.

A lot of this threads seems to say hey, don't be the loser... But in a hobby like this it's possible to have two winners, and that should be the goal.

[Rick2you2]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:17 PM, babsrocks31 said:

What a wonderful post ... There has to be some weight put into making a good deal with someone that also makes you both happy.

A lot of this threads seems to say hey, don't be the loser... But in a hobby like this it's possible to have two winners, and that should be the goal.

I don't come to the same conclusion. In my view, if I know someone, or know of someone, or knew them by reputation (like those on this Board), and it was something in their wheelhouse, then yes, give them a good deal. So, if I had Batgirl art and you approached me about it, yes. But someone who was unknown to me? For all I know, they could be one of The Brothers looking for a new source of bargains to offer at high prices. Too many people are willing to cut corners if given the chance, and if a few soothing words will knock off what could be thousands of dollars to create a profitable deal, why not? Trust everyone, but "cut the cards." 

I work hard to build my collection, heaven knows, Phantom Stranger art doesn't fall from the trees. But it is only paper and ink, and maybe pencils. If I don't get something, well, that's the way it goes. This morning, I learned that I missed a piece by no more than a dozen hours, when, ironically, I was at a comic book convention scoring nothing worthwhile. So, if I do find something, it is usually the product of my work. Why give it away to someone I don't know for no good reason? 

People need to do better "due diligence" when approached; when they don't, the impact of a brutal flip is rightfully theirs to bear. It's like clients of mine who complain they didn't get paid for their work, and it turns out there was something in the contract being invoked as a bar. When I ask if they read it before signing, they often respond "I don't understand these things" or even worse, "If I tried to change it, I wouldn't get the work". Then, they get the work, but don't get paid.They didn't do their "due diligence". I can help them as much as possible, but my sympathies are limited. So, are they "losers"? Too harsh, but I can't generate much sympathy for them.

As I wrote before, trust everyone, but cut the cards.

[Nexus]

On 6/17/2023 at 6:24 AM, tth2 said:

I would never tell anyone who initiated the conversation what I had paid.  That's completely irrelevant to the deal at hand, so the only data point that's relevant is what price is he willing to offer me to get me to part with the piece of art.  

I've had people initiate contact with me about buying a piece, and when I replied that I might be willing to sell, some came back to me and asked what did I want for it.  I always replied "You contacted me, so it's kind of up to you to make an offer.  I'm not going to negotiate against myself."  That usually weeds out the game players from the serious buyers pretty quickly.

"What did you pay for it?" instantly tells me all I need to know about who I'm dealing with. I like to answer "One dollar" and let them try to figure out what to do with that information.

[babsrocks31]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:45 AM, Rick2you2 said:

I don't come to the same conclusion. In my view, if I know someone, or know of someone, or knew them by reputation (like those on this Board), and it was something in their wheelhouse, then yes, give them a good deal. So, if I had Batgirl art and you approached me about it, yes. But someone who was unknown to me? For all I know, they could be one of The Brothers looking for a new source of bargains to offer at high prices. Too many people are willing to cut corners if given the chance, and if a few soothing words will knock off what could be thousands of dollars to create a profitable deal, why not? Trust everyone, but "cut the cards." 

I work hard to build my collection, heaven knows, Phantom Stranger art doesn't fall from the trees. But it is only paper and ink, and maybe pencils. If I don't get something, well, that's the way it goes. This morning, I learned that I missed a piece by no more than a dozen hours, when, ironically, I was at a comic book convention scoring nothing worthwhile. So, if I do find something, it is usually the product of my work. Why give it away to someone I don't know for no good reason? 

People need to do better "due diligence" when approached; when they don't, the impact of a brutal flip is rightfully theirs to bear. It's like clients of mine who complain they didn't get paid for their work, and it turns out there was something in the contract being invoked as a bar. When I ask if they read it before signing, they often respond "I don't understand these things" or even worse, "If I tried to change it, I wouldn't get the work". Then, they get the work, but don't get paid.They didn't do their "due diligence". I can help them as much as possible, but my sympathies are limited. So, are they "losers"? Too harsh, but I can't generate much sympathy for them.

As I wrote before, trust everyone, but cut the cards.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying don't work hard to ensure YOU get a good deal.

Ideally, both parties should be happy with their transaction, right? Of course, if someone has to lose don't let it be you.

But someone doesn't always have to, and that's what we should try to remember.

If both parties do their due diligence, it's possible they find that both parties are in good faith.

Also, sucks about the piece you missed due to being at convention with nothing... The crummy irony of this hobby.

 

Edit: and if I see any good PS art I will let you know!

Edited June 25, 2023 by babsrocks31

[comix4fun]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:45 PM, grapeape said:

 

If I know someone is looking for a long time for art, and I come across it, I point it out. I don't buy it and than seize upon that collector with an ungodly asking price.

 

Wait, you mean you would NOT create an (ill-advised and short-lived ) business based entirely on data-mining everyone you meet in the hobby to find out what they have and what they want so you can hold that information for a ransom "finders fee"?  Here I thought I was alone in wanting to avoid becoming a remora leeching on the underbelly of collector's hopes and dreams. 

[comix4fun]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:37 AM, Nexus said:

"What did you pay for it?" instantly tells me all I need to know about who I'm dealing with. I like to answer "One dollar" and let them try to figure out what to do with that information.

The answer is always "less than too much, but more than not enough"

[Rick2you2]

On 6/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, babsrocks31 said:

 

Also, sucks about the piece you missed due to being at convention with nothing... The crummy irony of this hobby.

 

Edit: and if I see any good PS art I will let you know!

Thank you, but in the beginning of the week, I got a bunch of pieces that were much harder to find. So, you win some, you lose some. Maybe I’ll post them on the Morlock board, but they came in rolled and the photo’s aren’t very good.

[The Voord]

On 6/22/2023 at 11:01 PM, comix4fun said:

You only stopped a couple emails too late.  

Oh, I dunno, I like my Keif Fromm stories (for all the wrong reasons). . . and like to see how his dastardly schemes pan out  

[babsrocks31]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:44 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Thank you, but in the beginning of the week, I got a bunch of pieces that were much harder to find. So, you win some, you lose some. Maybe I’ll post them on the Morlock board, but they came in rolled and the photo’s aren’t very good.

Rolled, that's such garbage! For a print or poster, I get it, but for OG art (heck, even a monoprint), rolled should never be the way!

I got a nice Tom Mandrake page that primarily features Zatanna and Phantom Stranger. If I wasn't always looking for a Mandrake Zatanna, I'd have told you to snag it.

I'll post mine in the Morlock, you post yours!

 

[The Voord]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:37 PM, Nexus said:

"What did you pay for it?" instantly tells me all I need to know about who I'm dealing with. I like to answer "One dollar" and let them try to figure out what to do with that information.

Well, yeah, I made a mistake revealing what I originally paid for the cover.  I don't usually do that but, here, I thought I was dealing with someone who would use that information as a starting point . . . having the common sense to factor-in price-appreciation into the equation to help pitch an offer (I wasn't looking to gouge . . . just wanted a reasonable/realistic offer and I would very likely have sold).  What I wasn't expecting was being offered $500 less than my original purchase price!  It wasn't exactly a sale I needed, so no biggie either way. I just thought the cover would be going to a better home (it was supposedly his all-time-favorite comic-book cover!).  A serious enquiry from the other guy . . . that resulted in a less-than-serious offer . . . so maybe not-so-serious after all.    

Edited June 26, 2023 by The Voord