"Why Collect Foreign Comics?" panel debut from HotKey Comics at MC3 Sunday May 21st 4 4

[ganni]

Me? I collect comic books because I like the drawing, the colors, the ballon dialogue etc... .

Edited May 30, 2023 by ganni

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 10:58 PM, ganni said:

Me? I collect comic books because I like the drawing, the colors, the ballon dialogue etc... .

Me too Gan. And the smell and feel of them.

International / foreign comics reprint original Marvel US content in full or in part. UK, Canadian and Australian Marvel Price Variants are the original content.

They're all lovely though, however and wherever they were produced 

[mjoeyoung]

I cannot help myself and would like to add my own hypothetical.  What if instead of printing an alternate cover with pence pricing, they had placed a pence sticker overtop the U.S. price?

It would seem that the pence price cover was used to facilitate sales in a foreign country.  If the currency denomination is truly the only difference then I would have to agree that they are similar to the other U.S. price variants.  Besides the price printed on the cover, the only foreign thing about them is where they were sold.

It might be better just to define these as Currency Price Variants, and group them with all the price variants.  Calling them UK Price Variants is too similar to calling them UK Editions, and naturally leads to confusion.  If the 30/35 cent price variants are not defined by the test markets in which they were distributed, then neither should these.  A more detailed descriptor would be something like $1.35 Canadian Dollar Price Variant; the price coming before the named currency.

That's my 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:14 AM, mjoeyoung said:

I cannot help myself and would like to add my own hypothetical.  What if instead of printing an alternate cover with pence pricing, they had placed a pence sticker overtop the U.S. price?

If they did that, the book would just be an original US copy with a sticker on it. The fact that the sticker existed, and that the book would have been UK distributed, wouldn't change anything. There has to be a printed difference for a book to be a variant. Anyone can stick a sticker on a book.

We had price stamps in the UK, for a long period. Original cents copies were shipped over and stamped with a UK price like this:

That doesn't make them a "UK copy" or price variant however. Only a printed UK price would do that.

On 5/31/2023 at 8:14 AM, mjoeyoung said:

It would seem that the pence price cover was used to facilitate sales in a foreign country.  If the currency denomination is truly the only difference then I would have to agree that they are similar to the other U.S. price variants.  

Hence my summary here:

So, in respect of the same original print state (Marvel) books, we have the following in existence at different points in history:

• US copies
• US Price Variants (30/35 and the 1999/2000 ones)
• UK Price Variants
• Canadian Price Variants
• Australian Price Variants

Everything else, not being part of the original print state, is by definition a reprint or a locally produced publication.

On 5/31/2023 at 8:14 AM, mjoeyoung said:

It might be better just to define these as Currency Price Variants, and group them with all the price variants.  Calling them UK Price Variants is too similar to calling them UK Editions, and naturally leads to confusion.  If the 30/35 cent price variants are not defined by the test markets in which they were distributed, then neither should these.  A more detailed descriptor would be something like $1.35 Canadian Dollar Price Variant; the price coming before the named currency.

That's my 

I define price variants as being books that came from the original US print run but with a plate change for an alternate price to the main book. So we have US, UK, Canadian and Australian Price Variants, as per my summary above. I'm not a fan of the word 'editions' in this context as to me, that implies the book is an edition of something else. Most 'foreigns' are their own thing, albeit with reprinted, repackaged content. The UK publication 'Spider-Man Comic Weekly' is not a UK Edition as it is the only instance. It may reprint content from the Amazing Spider-Man, but it is not an 'edition' of it. 

[rakehell]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:55 PM, HotKey said:

If Panini announced that they were now printing all their foreign editions in America alongside the original print run because they calculated it could save them .5 cents per issue, would those no longer be foreign editions in your opinion and just price variants? They would fall under the same criteria you apply to the other price variants, there would just be plate changes like before.

I have an observation to insert here. It's a small point, but, in my opinion, critical to the argument. Your hypothetical above would only qualify the (theoretical) American printed Panini books as price variants IF all of the books had the same US cents indicia. My often overlooked and really quite nit-pickey point is that the UKPPVs all have a US cents indicia. I think it's the same story for Canadian and Australian PPVs, but I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the pencies. This fact, to my mind, is the definitive proof that they are variants and not foreign editions. 

Here are two random examples that I happened to have within arm's reach this morning -

Brides in Love 24 from Charlton, published May, 1961. Distributed in the UK by L. Miller with a UK cover price of six pence (6d).

 

The indicia, however, shows that it was part of the same run as the US cents run, because nobody ever bothered to change the internal price from 10c.

Here's my beat-to-hell Marvel Team-Up 87, from November, 1979.

 

Again, the indicia shows a sale price of 40c, but the cover says 12p. Hence, a price variant. The price varies from indicia to cover.

Another example -

  

These three books all have the same 30c indica. How is the 12p variant any different to the 35c variant?

This argument is, I think, too complex to focus on any single factor like, say printing location. At some point (doubtless someone on here knows more about this than I do) Marvel moved all of their printing to Canada. That alone doesn't make Canadian printed Marvel books foreign editions.

Discuss.

[mjoeyoung]

On 5/31/2023 at 1:29 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

If they did that, the book would just be an original US copy with a sticker on it. The fact that the sticker existed, and that the book would have been UK distributed, wouldn't change anything. There has to be a printed difference for a book to be a variant. Anyone can stick a sticker on a book.

We had price stamps in the UK, for a long period. Original cents copies were shipped over and stamped with a UK price like this:

That doesn't make them a "UK copy" or price variant however. Only a printed UK price would do that.

Hence my summary here:

So, in respect of the same original print state books, we have the following in existence at different points in history:

• US copies
• US Price Variants (30/35 and the 1999/2000 ones)
• UK Price Variants
• Canadian Price Variants
• Australian Price Variants

Everything else, not being part of the original print state, is by definition a reprint or a locally produced publication.

I define price variants as being books that came from the original US print run but with a plate change for an alternate price to the main book. So we have US, UK, Canadian and Australian Price Variants, as per my summary above. 

I think you missed the part where I was agreeing with you.  The point is that if they HAD done it that way, there would be no doubt about the comic origin.  This must have been a contentious thread before I showed up. 

Where I disagree, is that I think your terminology implies that the comic is foreign made.  They are not UK, Canadian and Australian Price Variants.  They are United States Price Variants.  The price is just in another currency.

If you use language such as UK Edition and UK Price Variant you are defining Edition and Price Variant by UK.   If a UK Edition is produced in the UK, then it would follow that a UK Price Variant would be a book that is ALSO produced in the UK, but with a different price.

Price variants are defined by a price, not a location.  30 cent price variants are not called Baltimore, San Antonio, San Jose, Test Market 4, etc. Price Variants.

My summary (which I just came up with) looks something like this:

• Marvel Price Variants
  • 30 Cent Price Variants
  • 35 Cent Price Variants
  • $2.29 Price Variants
  • $2.49 Price Variants
  • Currency Price Variants
    • Pound Sterling Price Variant
    • Australian Dollar Price Variant
    • Canadian Dollar Price Variant

At least to me, this is a more precise way of presenting price variants, which I think would lead to less confusion.

Marvel produced 30 cent price variants to test a new pricing strategy for distribution in certain markets and also produced Australian dollar price variants for distribution in Australia.

[rakehell]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:50 AM, HotKey said:

Today, I think its fair to say at least 1,000 people are collecting foreign editions, if not more.

Another observation (nit-pick). I think you're distinctly light there, Shelby mate. If you just figure American collectors who are starting to pay big money for foreign first-appearances and such, then, maybe, yeah. But I'm speaking as an American living abroad and I can tell you that collectors of Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age Brazilian, Mexican, British, Australian, French, Belgian, Swedish, Norwegian, etc, etc, etc foreign editions number in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

The Brazilian collecting scene has been going strong arguably as long as the American scene. The French and Belgians are nuts about comics, to the extent that there is a Tintin museum in Brussels - https://www.museeherge.be/en and an Asterix theme park outside Paris - https://www.parcasterix.fr/en

The Italians, as any Friend of Ol' Marvel should know, have been turning out fumetti since the early 1900s.

The British market for home grown Golden Age comics is thriving. Many rare books routinely change hands for hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands of pounds.

And check out this thread from last week -

Comics everywhere, including in a busy shop devoted to the sale of something other than bloody Funko Pops.

Comic collecting has always been an international thing. It's just gaining a bit of extra attention lately. 

[rakehell]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:23 AM, mjoeyoung said:

I think you missed the part where I was agreeing with you.

Sorry, Joe, but I wasn't quoting you to begin with. I was replying to one of Hotkey's earlier posts. I agree with you agreeing with me. Plus I agree with your further observations. My personal preference is "Pence Price Variant"  

Edited May 31, 2023 by rakehell
clarification

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:23 AM, mjoeyoung said:

I think you missed the part where I was agreeing with you.  The point is that if they HAD done it that way, there would be no doubt about the comic origin.  This must have been a contentious thread before I showed up. 

Where I disagree, is that I think your terminology implies that the comic is foreign made.  They are not UK, Canadian and Australian Price Variants.  They are United States Price Variants.  The price is just in another currency.

If you use language such as UK Edition and UK Price Variant you are defining Edition and Price Variant by UK.   If a UK Edition is produced in the UK, then it would follow that a UK Price Variant would be a book that is ALSO produced in the UK, but with a different price.

Price variants are defined by a price, not a location.  30 cent price variants are not called Baltimore, San Antonio, San Jose, Test Market 4, etc. Price Variants.

My summary (which I just came up with) looks something like this:

• Marvel Price Variants
  • 30 Cent Price Variants
  • 35 Cent Price Variants
  • $2.29 Price Variants
  • $2.49 Price Variants
  • Currency Price Variants
    • Pound Sterling Price Variant
    • Australian Dollar Price Variant
    • Canadian Dollar Price Variant

At least to me, this is a more precise way of presenting price variants, which I think would lead to less confusion.

Marvel produced 30 cent price variants to test a new pricing strategy for distribution in certain markets and also produced Australian dollar price variants for distribution in Australia.

That's well thought out, and I like it mjoey. There are a number of ways it could be done, as I've debated many times, and I doubt we'll ever reach a universal consensus but I do like the logical thinking that underpins your approach there. Isn't the US dollar a currency, though? And why is it a given that, for example, your '$2.49 Price Variant' is in US currency? The salient part is the distribution country, not the currency. Pound Sterling Price Variants weren't, to my knowledge, distributed outside of the UK to all the other places that use / used the currency so you are introducing question marks. In my approach, the variants are defined by the four countries - US, UK, Canada, Australia. So I have four descriptors to your 8 of which three form a subset. I'm trying to use the simplest terms, with the least words possible, to identify what the book is and its headline distinction. They're all first printings, from the same run, and there are only four countries in play.

I remember posting once about the emphasis difference between these two options:

1. (UK Price) Variant
2. (UK) Price Variant

Big difference!

All that said, in one of my earlier posts I said:

"For me, as long as everyone knows what the production status of these books (UK/Can/AUS price variants) was (i.e. they are not / were not reprints) then I'd prefer if we didn't get too uptight about a descriptor which is pretty much physically accurate in every sense"

That being the case, does this graph below help (click to enlarge)? The intention is to try to illustrate as simply as possible how UK/Canadian/Australian priced first printings can sit in both camps - they are part of the original US print run, and therefore are first printings, but were distributed outside of the USA so straddle the 'foreign' distribution camp.

 

 

 

Does that work, or is it rubbish? And nobody mention 'Whitman' 

[themagicrobot]

@rakehell says

Quote

Another observation (nit-pick). I think you're distinctly light there, Shelby mate. If you just figure American collectors who are starting to pay big money for foreign first-appearances and such, then, maybe, yeah. But I'm speaking as an American living abroad and I can tell you that collectors of Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age Brazilian, Mexican, British, Australian, French, Belgian, Swedish, Norwegian, etc, etc, etc foreign editions number in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

I think the title to this thread, and the OP's talk should more correctly be "Why people in the USA should collect foreign comics". Foreign depends where you are based and comic collecting is a worldwide hobby and quite niche compared to say Book collecting. Action Comics No 1 is a big thing but someone in the UK may prefer a Beano No 1 or a Dandy No 1 (which are probably rarer than the Action).

@mjoeyoung says

Quote

If you use language such as UK Edition and UK Price Variant you are defining Edition and Price Variant by UK.   If a UK Edition is produced in the UK, then it would follow that a UK Price Variant would be a book that is ALSO produced in the UK, but with a different price.

I don't agree. The emphasis is on "UK price" when people say "UK price variant". You could say "9d price variant" or "1/- price variant" etc but as the prices changed regularly in the 1970s "UK price variant" seems the most sensible description. As has been quoted numerous times the difference is only on the covers with the interiors no different to  the (more common) regular comics with cents prices.

I'm not too happy with the phrase "UK Edition" either as it suggests something that is almost but not quite the same as the original edition. I'd prefer the phrase "UK comic" or "German comic" etc. So many UK comics may contain Marvel/DC content but their look/size/shape/interiors mean they have no exact counterpart on the other side of the Atlantic. To name a few such as Smash! and Pow! from Odhams, the Alan Class range, T&Ps Super DC, the Europe-wide Panini range, not to mention the Marvel UK comics who often messed around with the original material (see Planet of the Apes) or produced new content.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:39 AM, rakehell said:

Sorry, Joe, but I wasn't quoting you to begin with. I was replying to one of Hotkey's earlier posts. I agree with you agreeing with me. Plus I agree with your further observations. My personal preference is "Pence Price Variant"  

If there were two different pence prices for the same comic Daphers (crikey, I'm cooking up the what ifs now) - say, a 15p and a 20p version both in the same run - then one would be a 'Pence Price Variant'. The term 'UK Price Variant' eliminates that scenario as, last time I looked, there was only one UK*. If the starting point is the US copy, then 'UK Price Variant' identifies the salient difference and covers all bases and establishes the distribution country to boot. 

*Get your jokes in now. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:41 AM, themagicrobot said:

I'm not too happy with the phrase "UK Edition" either as it suggests something that is almost but not quite the same as the original edition. I'd prefer the phrase "UK comic" or "German comic" etc.

I prefer 'publication'. German Publication, etc.

[Get Marwood & I]

@HotKey

See what you've done.... 

[themagicrobot]

Quote

I prefer 'publication'. German Publication, etc.

They have been called comics for 100 years and that has often caused all sorts of problems that would have been eliminated if they had been classed as "publications" from day one. Because they were called comics it was assumed they must be for children even if the contents were Adult/Romance/War/Horror rather than Funny Animals. Hence the fear that ECs were being purchased by 6 year olds who would go on to become Juvenile Delinquents as a consequence. And people waving Horror comics in Courts saying "these so-called comics" ?!?

Edited May 31, 2023 by themagicrobot

[rakehell]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:44 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

If there were two different pence prices for the same comic Daphers (crikey, I'm cooking up the what ifs now) - say, a 15p and a 20p version both in the same run - then one would be a 'Pence Price Variant'. The term 'UK Price Variant' eliminates that scenario as, last time I looked, there was only one UK*. If the starting point is the US copy, then 'UK Price Variant' identifies the salient difference and covers all bases and establishes the distribution country to boot. 

You're right, of course, Velma. My problem (at least my problem that's relevant here) is an inability to broaden my context to include anyone else who may be listening. I know, when I say Pence Price Variant, exactly to what I'm referring. I just fall down on inclusivity, or something. I dunno, maybe.

Love your mutated Venn Diagram, btw. 

On 5/31/2023 at 11:44 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

*Get your jokes in now. 

Don't get me started, my fellow post-Brexit vagabond. 

On 5/31/2023 at 11:39 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

And nobody mention 'Whitman'

Plus, also...Whitman! 

[rakehell]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:56 AM, themagicrobot said:

Hence the fear that ECs were being purchased by 6 year olds who would go on to become Juvenile Delinquents as a consequence.

Some of us didn't need any help! 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/31/2023 at 12:02 PM, rakehell said:

My problem (at least my problem that's relevant here) is an inability to broaden my context to include anyone else who may be listening.

There are other people listening?

[themagicrobot]

On 5/31/2023 at 12:03 PM, rakehell said:

Some of us didn't need any help! 

Even comics that were for kids weren't politically correct back in the day. I saw Roger the Dodger and the Bash Street Kids as role models to aspire to.

[HotKey]

Good morning! I love waking up to some good debate on foreign comics.

If anyone thinks progress isn't being made in this thread, you're wrong. I've also learned how to quote multiple people in one reply. Let the good times roll!

On 5/30/2023 at 5:58 PM, ganni said:

Me? I collect comic books because I like the drawing, the colors, the ballon dialogue etc... .

100%. The more I see different foreign editions with variations of the American cover and other original art, the more I love them. Hulk 1 may have the most examples of beautiful variations in foreign editions. I have a German Williams coming with that awesome orange background. Tell me this isn't a thing of beauty.

That Strange Tales you posted Steve is another one I would love to find a copy of someday. There is just some absolutely amazing art out there from artists in other countries and that really does draw a lot of people into foreign comics. Outside of maybe Cortez, Duran and Frisano, foreign artists are very underappreciated still and original art can usually be had for a song in comparison to American OA.

On 5/31/2023 at 5:36 AM, rakehell said:

Another observation (nit-pick). I think you're distinctly light there, Shelby mate. If you just figure American collectors who are starting to pay big money for foreign first-appearances and such, then, maybe, yeah. But I'm speaking as an American living abroad and I can tell you that collectors of Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age Brazilian, Mexican, British, Australian, French, Belgian, Swedish, Norwegian, etc, etc, etc foreign editions number in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

Yeah I was only speaking to people who collected American comics who started collecting foreign editions. There are definitely millions and millions worldwide!

On 5/31/2023 at 6:53 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

@HotKey

See what you've done.... 

I like the Venn diagram! I just don't like the word "reprint" in the bottom right. In the diagram it would be technically correct, but that word carries such a negative connotation I try to avoid it unless I'm specifically talking about a country reprinting its own first editions.

On 5/31/2023 at 6:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

I prefer 'publication'. German Publication, etc.

Well I mean technically they are all comic books magazines... 

I'll be honest, the indica is swaying me pretty good on classifications.

[rakehell]

On 5/31/2023 at 12:19 PM, HotKey said:

I'll be honest, the indica is swaying me pretty good on classifications.

Is that a point for me?