"Why Collect Foreign Comics?" panel debut from HotKey Comics at MC3 Sunday May 21st 4 4

[ganni]

variant!

[CGC Mike]

The thread has been cleaned up.  If you don't get along with someone, it is best to use the ignore feature.  Name calling, belittling ect... isn't allowed.  If I have to come back, warnings will be issued.

[THE_BEYONDER]

[comicwiz]

To the OP and anyone reading this thread, get your hands on an Overstreet 40 and read Jon McClure's article. The research McClure did here, along with his groundbreaking research on price test variants is why it is important to understand the differences between books manufactured for markets like Canada and the UK. It is not accurate to describe these as "foreign editions" - there is a purpose for this nomenclature to be used correctly, because it otherwise confuses research others have done on this. Ignoring it is just going to result in backlash when you are either making these claims absent of this understanding, or ignoring already existing research.

[Lazyboy]

Jon McClure's only real accomplishment was to make knowledge of Marvel's late-1970s price variants more widespread. Nobody cares about or uses the nonsense he wrote in his OPG 40 article.

[Lazyboy]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:28 PM, ganni said:

variant!

 Foreign licensed reprint.

[HotKey]

Thanks Mike for keeping things civil.

As me and many others have stated, there will never be an overall consensus on how these are classified, with one factor being what I covered before about the early influence of a smaller group, some of whom don't care if their opinion is no longer the majority, and some of whom don't even care to discuss this ("This is a settled matter. case closed"). That's fine and I respect everyone's opinion, especially those who have been in the foreign world for a decade or more, I just don't necessarily agree with them all.

The only constant is change.

I stand by my simplest classification: if you needed a passport to buy it, its a foreign edition.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 1:17 PM, HotKey said:

I stand by my simplest classification: if you needed a passport to buy it, its a foreign edition.

Hello Hotkey 

Respectfully, I think you're doing a disservice to the hobby by grouping first print price variants in with 'foreign editions' (or 'international editions' as CGC now calls them). I've spent the best part of ten years trying to clarify the very big difference between a non-US priced book that comes from the same print run as its US priced counterpart, and subsequent overseas produced comics which reprint or repackage original US content. Indeed, I appear to have had a hand in getting CGC to finally adopt the 'price variant' label description for the Marvel UK, Canadian and Australian priced copies. It was a great shame, incidentally, to see them wind back on that distinction in their 'Certification of International Comic Books' statement which you will find here:

https://www.cgccomics.com/international-comics/

I feel that you are doing the same thing as CGC in your presentation - muddying the waters by glossing over the key distinction between the two very separate publication groups.

If you haven't already, perhaps you would take the time to read some of the work I have done in the "UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variant" area? Here is a good starting point:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/blogs/entry/5028-john-morlars-journal-summary-page/

In addition, here is an extract below from a post I made elsewhere on the forum which I hope clarifies why I favour the 'Price Variant' terminology.

Good luck with your presentations - we clearly have differing views on naming conventions but I can see that you are genuinely enthusiastic about the comics. If you do read the links, and have any questions, I'll be happy to comment further.

Cheers, Steve

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's OK to hold opinions that differ, as long as they can be backed up with rational thought.

Like you, I favour the term 'UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variant' as it is the best and shortest group of words that I can think of which satisfy the salient factors which, for me, are to recognize their variant status (they are a small subset from the original print state and, therefore, a 'variant' in the correct sense of the word) and secondly to distinguish them from the locally produced publications and reprints of the countries that they were distributed to. There is more to it, more to say, but my arguments were sufficient to compel CGC to move away from "UK Edition" and, whilst they are by no means the be all and end all of comic categorisation, it shows that a professional organisation with growing influence in the industry were prepared to listen to a rational thought process and act on it by changing their systems. If we all get behind those terms, and understand the production status of the books in question, then surely that's a good thing, no?

I accept the term is not perfect in that it encroaches, for want of a better word, on the 'purity' of the US price variant scenario. I understand that logic and thinking and have said so in my threads. When I first joined here my first pence thread was called "Marvel First Printing Pence Priced Distribution Variants". What a mouthful, trying as it was to cover every base. So I distilled it somewhat, to something more manageable. I accept that some dislike it and that it's simply not possible to come up with one short descriptor that will satisfy everyone. So I go with the best I can come up with, and justify it when challenged.

For me, as long as everyone knows what the production status of these books was (i.e. they are not / were not reprints) then I'd prefer if we didn't get too uptight about a descriptor which is pretty much physically accurate in every sense. 

In a nut shell, the UK, Canadian and Australian priced copies were:

• Printed at the same time, in the same place, and by the same people as the US copies
• As a result of plate changes, they have small cover differences including but not limited to a non-US cover price
• This makes them variants - they vary in appearance from their majority US cousins
• The salient difference is the price - this makes them a price variant
• Because price variants exist in other forms, we have to add an additional descriptor to differentiate them
• In the case of the UK copies, UK is that additional obvious descriptor - hence 'UK Price Variant'

So, in respect of the same original print state books, we have the following in existence at different points in history:

• US copies
• US Price Variants (30/35 and the 1999/2000 ones)
• UK Price Variants
• Canadian Price Variants
• Australian Price Variants

Everything else, not being part of the original print state, is by definition a reprint or a locally produced publication.

'Spider-Man Comics Weekly', a UK produced title, may share a cover to an Amazing Spider-Man US original comic, but it is it's own thing - a UK local publication. CGC were calling UK Price Variants of ASM, and UK produced Spider-Man Comics Weeklies, 'UK Editions'. They were calling two different things by one misleading title.  This is why I and others challenged them. This is why they changed their labelling approach.

If we call UK Price Variants "Foreign Editions" then we lose completely the fact that they are part of the original print run. We have to link them to their majority US counterparts. 

[HotKey]

Hi Steve!
Thanks for weighing in. I do want to say that when it comes to opinions that I value and respect in the foreign community, you are at the top with people like the Ott's and Roybal. I don't think it can be overstated how valuable and important all the countless hours of research and time you and them have put into foreign comics are. Even though it can "go without saying", I do want to say I clearly would not be where I am in the foreign community without all the research and groundwork laid by you and them and a few others like you and I have a lot of respect for everything you all have done. I do believe we all have the same goal and that is to get this right.

I did read through the information you provided. Where I think the original conversations failed is that they all seemed to center around an either/or classification, that they had to be called either foreign editions or price variants.

My position is that price variants are a subset within foreign editions. They can be, and are, both I think.

Let me ask it this way, why aren't price variants a subset within foreign editions? I don't see a clear reason in any of the information that they can't be both.

*edited fixed grammar*

Edited May 30, 2023 by HotKey

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:33 PM, HotKey said:

Hi Steve!
Thanks for weighing in. I do want to say that when it comes to opinions that I value and respect in the foreign community, you are at the top with people like the Ott's and Roybal. I don't think it can be overstated how valuable and important all the countless hours of research and time you and them have put into foreign comics. Even though it can "go without saying", I do want to say I clearly would not be where I am in the foreign community without all the research and groundwork laid by you and them and a few others like you and I have a lot of respect for everything you all have done. 

Thank you for the kind words. My area of expertise is Price Variants. I know a little about non-US publications, notably how they differ to books produced from original US print runs, but others have a much greater knowledge of them than I ever will.

On 5/30/2023 at 2:33 PM, HotKey said:

I did read through the information you provided. Where I think the original conversations failed is that they all seemed to center around an either/or classification, that they had to be called either foreign editions or price variants.

My position is that price variants are a subset within foreign editions. They can be, and are, both I think.

Let me ask it this way, why aren't price variants a subset within foreign editions? I don't see a clear reason in any of the information that they can't be both.

Because they are part of the original US print run. UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants are all first printings and therefore carry equal status to their US priced cousins. Any book that does not come from the original US print run is by definition a reproduction. They reproduce material, in full or in part, that was originally printed in the US. I cannot stress this distinction strongly enough, first printings versus subsequent printings.

Try reading this additional explanation of mine, if you would:

 

Additionally, this book below...

...should be classified as a Price Variant of this book....

...because they were printed together, in the US, on the same presses. That is a very important distinction from both a production standing and subsequent financial standing. If we call it a 'Foreign Edition' - fully or sub-set - it then sits with this book below...

...and - in my opinion - completely loses that very important 'first printing' distinction.

There is a factual element underpinning my argument, Hotkey. First printings are just that. Lumping them in with subsequent non-US publications does them a huge disservice and is more opinion based that factual. If you are going to stick your head above the parapet and publicise non-US books to those who may not fully understand them, you must be sure to present factual positions and arguments which can be justified. Otherwise you run the risk of misleading people. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:33 PM, HotKey said:

My position is that price variants are a subset within foreign editions

One other thought, Hotkey. For many long years, people in the hobby have laboured under the misapprehension that every book printed for distribution outside of the US, with a non-US cover price, is a reprint. Consequently, what I now call UK Price Variants (pence copies) have historically fallen into that category. Reprints tend to fetch less money than first printing originals. So for many years, pence copies have lagged far behind their US cousins on the resale market.

Look at these three books:

The first one is the first US print of Amazing Spider-Man. It carries a high resale worth in the hobby. 

The second book is the Golden Record Reprint. Because it is a reprint, it is worth considerably less than the first printing original which is entirely understandable.

The third book is the UK Price Variant. It is a first printing and, in theory, has the right to command a resale price comparable to the US copy. For many long years it lagged behind its US cousin due in part - but not completely - to the perception that it was reprint. That perception is slowly shifting and, as a result, the price of the UKPV is increasing and pence keys at least are now beginning to command comparable prices.

So, Hotkey (sorry, I didn't catch your name) - if you put UK Price Variants in the 'Foreign Edition' category, and Foreign Editions are by definition books which reprint original US content - then you are undoing those many years of pushing for production clarity and financial parity by implying once again that they are reprints. Do you see?

[HotKey]

I understand your position better. Let me ask a hypothetical:

If Panini announced that they were now printing all their foreign editions in America alongside the original print run because they calculated it could save them .5 cents per issue, would those no longer be foreign editions in your opinion and just price variants? They would fall under the same criteria you apply to the other price variants, there would just be plate changes like before.

I do agree there was/is a bad reputation about them being branded "reprints" and that did hurt their value for a long time. That is also why part 1 of part 1 in my panel is going over why these aren't reprints and are first editions for that country, just like other printed books are viewed. I am doing what I can to correct that false perception. 

I do believe that as this misconception is fixed, we will see the pence editions/price variants surpass the American counterparts, much like newsstands have done as awareness over them increased.

 - Shelby

Edited May 30, 2023 by HotKey

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:55 PM, HotKey said:

I understand your position better. Let me ask a hypothetical:

If Panini announced that they were now printing all their foreign editions in American alongside the original print run because they calculated it could save them .5 cents per issue, would those no longer be foreign editions in your opinion and just price variants? They would fall under the same criteria you apply to the other price variants, there would just be plate changes like before.

It's an odd premise, Shelby, but if the books that Panini wanted the printers to print for UK distribution were the same as the US original books, i.e. the exact same guts with just a plate change for the UK cover price, then yes, those books would be UK Price Variants. That would just be a return to the 1960-1982 production method, if I understand your premise correctly - an issue is solicited with an instruction to the printers to run X copies with a US price and Y copies with a UK price. All part of one end to end print run. That is the nature of a variant, in my view. A book that comes from the same print run as the main book, but which has a smaller quantity produced with a specific difference for a specific reason.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:55 PM, HotKey said:

I do agree there was/is a bad reputation about them being branded "reprints" and that did hurt their value for a long time. That is also why part 1 of part 1 in my panel is going over why these aren't reprints and are first editions for that country, just like other printed books are viewed. I am doing what I can to correct that false perception. 

I do believe that as this misconception is fixed, we will see the pence editions/price variants surpass the American counterparts, much like newsstands have done as awareness over them increased.

 - Shelby

Like CGC, and again respectfully, I believe you are acting in good faith here Shelby but you are undermining your own good intentions by placing UKPVs under the 'foreigns' banner. You cannot on the one hand say you are doing what you can to correct the false reprint perception associated with them and then lump the books in with reprints. UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants are a separate first printing comic entity, worthy of their own categorisation, and which should not be mentioned at all when discussing non-US publications which, by definition, are not first printings of the original, salient material.  You're your own man, but I would urge you to reconsider where you place the emphasis. By all means mention UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants in your seminars - but how you place the emphasis will be critical to your audience's understanding. Spread facts, not opinions, would be my advice.

[valiantman]

I'll echo what @Get Marwood & I has said and hopefully keep it brief.

If "foreign edition" is the label for everything, then it is implied that everything (or almost everything) is a reprint.

Having the first prints being a subset of "foreign edition" is the disservice. There's no reason that first prints should ever be "hidden" behind a label for the larger group of (mostly) reprints.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 5:37 PM, valiantman said:

I'll echo what @Get Marwood & I has said and hopefully keep it brief.

If "foreign edition" is the label for everything, then it is implied that everything (or almost everything) is a reprint.

Having the first prints being a subset of "foreign edition" is the disservice. There's no reason that first prints should ever be "hidden" behind a label for the larger group of (mostly) reprints.

Ta. Much briefer than my long-winded attempts!

I'll say again that I believe the intentions here are good, but the thinking is slightly flawed and is promoting the opposite of the intended outcome. If you get the basic premise wrong, everything that follows - no matter how well intentioned and heartfelt - will also likely be wrong.

On a similar theme, I have an intermittent offline battle ongoing with Matt Nelson over his insistence on labelling international comics which reprint the first appearances of original US characters as 'first appearances'. My argument is that only the original US book should carry that honour / designation. His counter is that it is the first appearance in that (non-US) country. My further counter is "Well say that then!"

Spot the difference:

"1st appearance of the Justice League of America"

"1st appearance of the Justice League of America in Brazil"

[valiantman]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:50 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

On a similar theme, I have an intermittent offline battle ongoing with Matt Nelson over his insistence on labelling international comics which reprint the first appearances of original US characters as 'first appearances'. My argument is that only the original US book should carry that honour / designation. His counter is that it is the first appearance in that (non-US) country. My further counter is "Well say that then!"

Spot the difference:

"1st appearance of the Justice League of America"

"1st appearance of the Justice League of America in Brazil"

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 7:43 PM, valiantman said:

Thank you very much 

[HotKey]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:10 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Like CGC, and again respectfully, I believe you are acting in good faith here Shelby but you are undermining your own good intentions by placing UKPVs under the 'foreigns' banner. You cannot on the one hand say you are doing what you can to correct the false reprint perception associated with them and then lump the books in with reprints. UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants are a separate first printing comic entity, worthy of their own categorisation, and which should not be mentioned at all when discussing non-US publications which, by definition, are not first printings of the original, salient material.  You're your own man, but I would urge you to reconsider where you place the emphasis. By all means mention UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants in your seminars - but how you place the emphasis will be critical to your audience's understanding. Spread facts, not opinions, would be my advice.

I don't see how I'm lumping anything as reprints. I'm taking steps to point out to people that 1st prints in other countries are 1st editions for that country and not reprints. I have never called a 1st print from any country a reprint and have tried to show that they aren't. I have been consistent on that point. I think its a disservice to a country to call its first edition a reprint.

For the Panini hypothetical:

I think where we have a fundamental difference of opinion is that your position seems to be that the place of production is most important in classification, my position is that the place of distribution is most important. Many countries shared printing duties, one example being the HIT Comics from Germany. Many of these were printed in Italy, but nobody considers them Italian variants. I do understand that the 1st print run in America is a different distinction than those, but my view is the same logic applies.

Consider another what if, same premise, but now instead of the same run on the same machine, there are 2 machines side by side at the printer. One does American, one does the price variants, both printed at the same time. Still not foreign editions?

What if the American is printed in New York on July 1st but Panini prints in Dallas on July 1st? 

What if Panini instead prints in Mexico on the same day? Canada? Italy? I think this may help show my position better.

I do 100% agree with you on the CGC labeling, it should be "1st appearance of the Justice League in Brazil". That seems clear cut and just about everyone seems to agree on it. What's the problem Matt?  

You have definitely given me more to consider though and I will be giving this a lot more thought before my next panel at the end of June.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, HotKey said:

I don't see how I'm lumping anything as reprints. I'm taking steps to point out to people that 1st prints in other countries are 1st editions for that country and not reprints. I have never called a 1st print from any country a reprint and have tried to show that they aren't. I have been consistent on that point. I think its a disservice to a country to call its first edition a reprint.

I'm glad you used that phrase, Shelby - disservice - as it shows me you care about how comic books are treated which is why your argument deserves respect. I think CGC labelling an international book with the title of the US book's cover that it reproduces is also a disservice so we're in the same thematic ballpark. 

All I will say, as a final contribution on the matter, is that Hit Comics Die Fantastischen Vier #229 may well be an original German publication and a first printing in Germany. But the salient aspect in consideration of original US created material is that it partially reprints Marvel's Fantastic Four #49, the first full appearance of Galactus. The 10d priced UK Price Variant of Fantastic Four #49 however does not reprint that story as it is a first US printing. That is the difference you and I disagree on - I set a greater stall by the first (US) printing designation and that for me elevates UKPVs out of the 'foreign' grouping which, whilst being comprised largely of first printings in their home countries by title, are not the first printings of the original US material that they reproduce. There may only be one original German title called Hit Comics Die Fantastischen Vier with an issue #229, but it would not exist if not for the US Marvel first printing of FF#49 that preceded it. And that original first printing comprised a 12c US copy and a 10d UK copy.

On 5/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, HotKey said:

For the Panini hypothetical:

I think where we have a fundamental difference of opinion is that your position seems to be that the place of production is most important in classification, my position is that the place of distribution is most important. Many countries shared printing duties, one example being the HIT Comics from Germany. Many of these were printed in Italy, but nobody considers them Italian variants. I do understand that the 1st print run in America is a different distinction than those, but my view is the same logic applies.

Consider another what if, same premise, but now instead of the same run on the same machine, there are 2 machines side by side at the printer. One does American, one does the price variants, both printed at the same time. Still not foreign editions?

What if the American is printed in New York on July 1st but Panini prints in Dallas on July 1st? 

What if Panini instead prints in Mexico on the same day? Canada? Italy? I think this may help show my position better.

If you don't mind Shelby I'll decline the opportunity to comment further on hypothetical scenarios, especially ones so unlikely. It's hard enough clarifying our positions on what did and does happen without speculating on what ifs.

On 5/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, HotKey said:

I do 100% agree with you on the CGC labeling, it should be "1st appearance of the Justice League in Brazil". That seems clear cut and just about everyone seems to agree on it. What's the problem Matt?  

Pride?

On 5/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, HotKey said:

You have definitely given me more to consider though and I will be giving this a lot more thought before my next panel at the end of June.

Great. We may disagree on the terms, but I think we both love the books. Good luck with your future presentations.