Seller sold an incomplete book to me - How would you respond? 10 10

[Math Teacher]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:16 AM, O Doyle Rules said:

I purchased a Golden Age comic recently from an eBay seller which turned out to be incomplete (Missing centerfold). Prior to purchasing, the seller assured me the comic book was complete and that it also had no restoration. The comic was purchased for $400.00 plus sales tax. My intent when purchasing the comic was to send it off to CGC for grading. I did not inspect the comic or handle it since my intent was to get it graded and I did not want to cause any inadvertent damage to the comic. It was shipped off to CGC as received from the seller. I found out that the comic was not complete when the grading came in. They gave the comic a Qualified grade (green label) due to the centerfold missing. 

I contacted the seller and advised him of the situation. At first, he was responsive and ending up offering a partial refund of $100.00. I advised him that I did not feel that was adequate given the circumstances. I would have never purchased the comic had I known the comic was incomplete. I provided him some recent data from GPA which showed the comic would be valued way less than what I even paid for the raw copy. I responded back by asking for my money back plus the grading cost and I would return the graded comic to him. Or, I would accept a partial refund of $250.00 and keep the book. It was at this point, things went south. He basically said $100.00, take it or leave it - more so due to the length of time than anything else. He was informed approximately 60 days from the time I purchased the comic.

I contacted eBay and they advised their money back guarantee does not apply since it is over 30 days. They did feel my request to resolve the issue was more than reasonable and that the seller should provide the partial refund or take the comic back for a full refund. eBay indicated that the seller could have his account suspended and his ability to sell on eBay could be impacted if he does not resolve the issue. I advised seller of what eBay said and now he has gone completely silent - no response whatsoever. 

I followed up with eBay to report the seller's actions and they are reaching out to him directly. Any advice from this Forum? All thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you! 

This same thing happened to me last year, and everyone blamed me for the problem. Yes, in hindsight, I should have counted the pages. However, the seller should bear some of the responsibility. It is the seller's responsibility to provide a product free from defects, especially if the book sells for $400+. 

Here's why I feel that way. 

Let's say I go to Walmart to get a tire replaced. For whatever reason, several of the lug nuts don't get tightened properly. On my way home, due to some bumpy roads, the lug nuts get sheared off and I cause an accident. If we follow the rationale of everyone here on the boards, I am at fault because I didn't inspect the tire prior to driving home. But honestly, the majority of the board members here would sue Walmart for the damages, and, in all likelihood, win the suit.

I don't understand the reasoning that there should be no repercussions for a seller who sells a defective product.

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:47 PM, davidking623 said:

how about offering a refund of the difference between the 100 and the purchase price of the book and shipping and shipping it back on you

I am really close to this by asking for $250.00. I have a total of $515.00 invested in the book. $430.00 (book) + $85.00 (CGC costs) Per GPA I may have a book worth at best $150.00 - (probably less.) This means I am hooked at this point $365.00. Once again, given all the circumstances, I really feel my ask is extremely reasonable. I would also be thrilled if the seller agrees to refund me back the $430.00 and he can have the book. 

[rjpb]

Selling an incomplete book as complete is on the seller. Always check when book arrives, even from reputable dealers. I ended up returning around 2% of all raw books I buy due to missing centerfolds, pages, or clipped out coupons. People miss things. 

Sending an incomplete book off to CGC without double checking it is on you. If you were worried about damaging the book before sending it in, you are effectively paying CGC to check if it is complete for you. 

I can't think of too many books that would only take a 25% hit in value if missing a centerfold. Maybe a few low grade classic cover books, where the value is in the cover, but generally only offering 25% refund due to incompleteness is cheap, assuming the seller believes the mistake could have been made. 

If he gets to keep $100 selling an incomplete copy of what would otherwise be a $400 book, he should be happy. More than a few times when I've told the seller that a book I paid $100 or less for was incomplete, they've refunded fully and told me to keep it, even once when I told the buyer, I'd be happy with just getting half back. 

[Math Teacher]

On 5/23/2023 at 2:44 PM, eastriver400 said:

 

There is no way of knowing if Seller knowingly tried to pass off the book as complete so I am assuming the Seller made an honest mistake.    However, Seller effectively admitted he didn't count the pages in the book and only assumed it was complete by offering to refund $ 100 to buyer.  If Seller did indeed count the pages he would have told the Buyer to buzz off.   Both buyer and Seller assumed the book was complete.   Fair enough. We have all done it.  Honest Seller Mistake, honest buyer mistake. No Biggie.

 

But now that we know the book was missing the centerfold, the Seller should take the book back regardless of the Ebay 30 day policy. It clearly is the right thing to do.  

Buyer should also eat the $ lost on grading the book, and should also pay for return shipping.

 

Right is right. Wrong is wrong.  I don't blame the Buyer one bit here. He relied on the Seller's description. Seller made a mistake. Mistakes happen. How he handles his mistake separates a Good Dealer from an unscrupulous one.

I agree 100% with this. If the seller failed to count the pages and the buyer failed to count the pages, why is the buyer the only one that is facing any repercussions? I do agree that the seller should eat the cost of having the book graded.

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:00 PM, eastriver400 said:

 

P.S.   @O Doyle Rules    if things don't work out your way, you can always ask Ebay to reconsider the 30 day guarantee in your case because you had to send the item to an impartial 3rd party (CGC) in order to see if the seller misrepresented the item.   Also, throw in some language that you "relied on his promise" that the book was complete.  Worth a shot.

 

 

 

 

Excellent advice! I was thinking this was my next step. In my humble opinion, eBay still holds some responsibility even past the 30 days if the seller does not make it right. I did rely upon the seller's statement that the comic was complete when I made the purchase. I also believe the fact that an impartial expert 3rd party verified it as incomplete bolsters my claim. Thank you! 

[justafan]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:57 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

This is where "He Said, She Said" comes into play. The seller claimed that this was complete at sale, and CGC marked it incomplete at a different end of business. Without your inspection, how can we conclude that the seller is negligent at all?

@O Doyle Rules This right here.  Nobody but you knows the truth but since you stated you didn't even inspect the book, then based on the information we are given, not even you can know the FULL truth since only 2 external parties (the seller and CGC) can claim that they inspected the book and have come to different conclusions.  He (being the seller) said it was complete. She (being CGC) said it was incomplete.  At this point, you have very little evidence to prove otherwise. 

As for fault, well, CGC isn't likely to have removed the centerfold and isn't going to admit to removing/damaging the centerfold as they are in the business of being a trusted and reliable grading service which is why you sent your book to them.  You could have paid for a pre-screen restoration check and they probably would have spotted the missing centerfold and informed you to decide before sending it off to be graded.

The seller may be at fault here if we take CGC's word for it but you severely lost both the opportunity to challenge the seller's word AND the ebay buyer protection when you sent it off to a 3rd party without documenting it's full condition and exceeded the 30 day return window.  Once it is in the hands of a 3rd party, no matter how reputable, you have contaminated the closed loop of custody between you and the seller (shipping service being excluded unless you suspect tampering with the package before you received it).  You failed to validate or invalidate the seller's claims by not inspecting it.  That is on you.

Now ebay may still side with you if you decide to pursue it fully but whatever you do DO NOT send any threatening messages or use foul language to the seller, DO NOT attempt a cc/paypal charge back or you may lose whatever ebay support you currently have.  At this point your 2 options are either accept the $100 refund and keep the book or pursue a larger partial refund/return for full refund and accept whatever ebay provides with the risk being they may rule in the seller's favor, close the case and you won't get any refund.  That is it.

[manetteska]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:11 PM, Math Teacher said:

I agree 100% with this. If the seller failed to count the pages and the buyer failed to count the pages, why is the buyer the only one that is facing any repercussions? I do agree that the seller should eat the cost of having the book graded.

In my eyes the sore thumb is the time between sale and return. At what point is a sale "complete"? Per eBay's rules (where the book was bought) it's 30 days and the buyer is beyond that timeframe.

"Reputable" dealer or not there comes a time when enough time has passed and it's time for both parties to move on. Depending on each individual's point of view, 60 days is either enough time or not enough time. I'm surprised eBay is doing anything in this case as the return window has closed.

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:03 PM, Math Teacher said:

This same thing happened to me last year, and everyone blamed me for the problem. Yes, in hindsight, I should have counted the pages. However, the seller should bear some of the responsibility. It is the seller's responsibility to provide a product free from defects, especially if the book sells for $400+. 

Here's why I feel that way. 

Let's say I go to Walmart to get a tire replaced. For whatever reason, several of the lug nuts don't get tightened properly. On my way home, due to some bumpy roads, the lug nuts get sheared off and I cause an accident. If we follow the rationale of everyone here on the boards, I am at fault because I didn't inspect the tire prior to driving home. But honestly, the majority of the board members here would sue Walmart for the damages, and, in all likelihood, win the suit.

I don't understand the reasoning that there should be no repercussions for a seller who sells a defective product.

Wow! Thank you so much! Your analogy was better than mine earlier and is spot on. I was really stunned (and don't understand the logic) by some posters who were blaming me 100%.  

[Math Teacher]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:22 PM, manetteska said:

In my eyes the sore thumb is the time between sale and return. At what point is a sale "complete"? Per eBay's rules (where the book was bought) it's 30 days and the buyer is beyond that timeframe.

"Reputable" dealer or not there comes a time when enough time has passed and it's time for both parties to move on. Depending on each individual's point of view, 60 days is either enough time or not enough time. I'm surprised eBay is doing anything in this case as the return window has closed.

I can see your point about the time frame. I still think a refund, not necessarily a FULL refund, is in order.

[Funnybooks]

victim blaming bandwagon

What if in a scenario, the purchaser was someone that does not know anything about comic books and counting pages or detecting restoration? Making a purchase based on a description from what seemed like a reputable dealer/seller only to find out via third party grading weeks or months later that the item was sold was incomplete or restored. The buyer still to blame?

[csaag]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:26 PM, Funnybooks said:

victim blaming bandwagon

What if in a scenario, the purchaser was someone that does not know anything about comic books and counting pages or detecting restoration? Making a purchase based on a description from what seemed like a reputable dealer/seller only to find out via third party grading weeks or months later that the item was sold was incomplete or restored. The buyer still to blame?

wouldn't that kinda fall under 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'?

The buyer did have options & protections available but chose to forgo them by submitting the book w/o inspection. It's not really a question of what % he or she is at fault.  It's what choices are available and what choices are made.

The buyer may still have options depending on what Ebay comes back and says and what they may do to the seller's account.

Other than that, you are at the mercy of a seller who you would hope would do the 'right' thing but isn't required to.

[Lightning55]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:26 PM, Funnybooks said:

victim blaming bandwagon

What if in a scenario, the purchaser was someone that does not know anything about comic books and counting pages or detecting restoration? Making a purchase based on a description from what seemed like a reputable dealer/seller only to find out via third party grading weeks or months later that the item was sold was incomplete or restored. The buyer still to blame?

People should not be making purchases of items they "do not know anything about". Period.

[iggykoopa]

The time that has already passed is what I'm getting hung up on. He sent it off to CGC without inspecting it. As another member pointed out, if the TATs were still 10 months he wouldn't know about the incomplete book until a year from now. Would it be ok for OP to reach out to the seller and ask for a full refund a year later? Where's the line? 60 days is a long time to ask for a full refund. I say take what you can get back (in this case $100) and cut your losses. Reputable dealer or not there has to be some kind of timeframe to make a claim. 

[justafan]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:26 PM, Funnybooks said:

victim blaming bandwagon

What if in a scenario, the purchaser was someone that does not know anything about comic books and counting pages or detecting restoration? Making a purchase based on a description from what seemed like a reputable dealer/seller only to find out via third party grading weeks or months later that the item was sold was incomplete or restored. The buyer still to blame?

This is probably what unscrupulous ebay, facebook, instagram market place sellers gamble on.  With the long TATs by the time you get the book back, it's past most marketplace return windows leaving little recourse.

[rjpb]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:23 PM, O Doyle Rules said:

Wow! Thank you so much! Your analogy was better than mine earlier and is spot on. I was really stunned (and don't understand the logic) by some posters who were blaming me 100%.  

I don't think anyone was blaming you for being upset and feeling you deserved a refund, just indicating that the seller shouldn't be responsible for grading costs. I think either analogy is weak, as incomplete comics aren't a safety hazard if you think they are complete, and unlikely to cause greater damage to the rest of your collection. A more apt analogy would be someone selling a vintage poster as original (with or without intent to deceive) and the buyer spending money to get it professional framed only to afterwards find out it 's a reprint. Buyer would have every right to expect the seller would take the poster back for a full refund, but not to be reimbursed for framing. 

[O Doyle Rules]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:13 PM, justafan said:

@O Doyle Rules This right here.  Nobody but you knows the truth but since you stated you didn't even inspect the book, then based on the information we are given, not even you can know the FULL truth since only 2 external parties (the seller and CGC) can claim that they inspected the book and have come to different conclusions.  He (being the seller) said it was complete. She (being CGC) said it was incomplete.  At this point, you have very little evidence to prove otherwise. 

As for fault, well, CGC isn't likely to have removed the centerfold and isn't going to admit to removing/damaging the centerfold as they are in the business of being a trusted and reliable grading service which is why you sent your book to them.  You could have paid for a pre-screen restoration check and they probably would have spotted the missing centerfold and informed you to decide before sending it off to be graded.

The seller may be at fault here if we take CGC's word for it but you severely lost both the opportunity to challenge the seller's word AND the ebay buyer protection when you sent it off to a 3rd party without documenting it's full condition and exceeded the 30 day return window.  Once it is in the hands of a 3rd party, no matter how reputable, you have contaminated the closed loop of custody between you and the seller (shipping service being excluded unless you suspect tampering with the package before you received it).  You failed to validate or invalidate the seller's claims by not inspecting it.  That is on you.

Now ebay may still side with you if you decide to pursue it fully but whatever you do DO NOT send any threatening messages or use foul language to the seller, DO NOT attempt a cc/paypal charge back or you may lose whatever ebay support you currently have.  At this point your 2 options are either accept the $100 refund and keep the book or pursue a larger partial refund/return for full refund and accept whatever ebay provides with the risk being they may rule in the seller's favor, close the case and you won't get any refund.  That is it.

I now understand the "he said she said" statement better. Thank you. My only response is that I feel CGC's word weighs much heavier on the scale than the seller since they are deemed an impartial 3rd party expert. In civil court the scales just needs to be tipped in my favor. CGC is pretty much my expert witness in a court of law. I think CGC's testimony will win over the seller's word every time in court. I have been nothing but polite to the seller and only used the language that eBay advised me to express to him concerning this situation. 

[Lightning55]

What if the time period involved is substantially longer than the 60 days stated? We are only getting one side of this story, and no fact checking.

[davidking623]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:35 PM, O Doyle Rules said:

I now understand the "he said she said" statement better. Thank you. My only response is that I feel CGC's word weighs much heavier on the scale than the seller since they are deemed an impartial 3rd party expert. In civil court the scales just needs to be tipped in my favor. CGC is pretty much my expert witness in a court of law. I think CGC's testimony will win over the seller's word every time in court. I have been nothing but polite to the seller and only used the language that eBay advised me to express to him concerning this situation. 

This is great to see , outstanding ! Luckily for me I did not make this mistake because I would side with returning your money . I feel if you could negotiate a settlement between 100 and 400 would be better  as I truly feel the 100 he offered is you getting hosed .

[LowGradeBronze]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:36 PM, Lightning55 said:

What if the time period involved is substantially longer than the 60 days stated? We are only getting one side of this story, and no fact checking.

The seller is able (just not willing,) to respond to the buyer at any time....

[davidking623]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:36 PM, Lightning55 said:

What if the time period involved is substantially longer than the 60 days stated? We are only getting one side of this story, and no fact checking.

Its best to assume the buyer is telling the truth given he does not want to reveal the seller as he is giving the seller the chance to make it right , although Ebay is involved in the decision making process .