How many Key books are there in the Allentown Collection? 1 1

[action1kid]

Can you name them beyond the Heritage Archives?

[action1kid]

Being it’s such a small collection of 135 or so books I thought it wouldn’t be very difficult.

[thedude]

I know there is a Detective 27 supposed to be around a 9.6 according to Jim Payette who found them, plus Cap #1 and Tec #38.

Edited July 13, 2023 by thedude

[adamstrange]

• Marvel 1
• Bulletman 1
• Boy Commando 1
• Mystic 1
• Batman 1
• Cap 1
• Tec 27
• Mystery Men 1
• Wings 1
• Wonder 1
• Silver Streak 6
• Spec Ed Capt Marvel
• Speed 1
• Spirit 1
• Super Mystery 1
• Sure Fire 1
• War Heroes 1

[action1kid]

How many of those books are purple label or conserved?

 

thank you

[lou_fine]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:13 PM, action1kid said:

Can you name them beyond the Heritage Archives?

Well, I think your question also depends upon your definition of a "key", as I believe each collector here might have their own definition.  

But if you want to take a look at the scans of a whole slew of the Allentown's that are owned by boardies here, just refer back to the Allentown thread here and then decide for yourself:    

My searching skills are absolutely terrible here, but the best source for an answer to your question would be the advanced draft write-up that was compiled for the Allentown Collection.  Especially in terms of the page that had a detailed list of every single one of the 135 Allentown books along with the original grade assigned to each of them by Jim Payette plus the CGC grade for the books that had been slabbed to that point in time.  All I will say is that Jim is a tough tough grader if you compare his grades to the ones assigned by CGC.  The sample article I have is a 9-pager dated December 28th of 2006 which was forwarded to me by West in 2007 when work was being done on the inclusion of the Chinatown pedigree for the yet to be published Pedigree Book.     

I know that there is an updated and more flashier draft write-up for the Allentown Collection that was linked on these boards here, which I hope another boardie with better Search skills can track down for us here.    

Edited July 14, 2023 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 7/13/2023 at 3:49 PM, thedude said:

I know there is a Detective 27 supposed to be around a 9.6 according to Jim Payette who found them, plus Cap #1 and Tec #38.

I believe you are confusing the 'Tec 27 which was graded as a VF/NM by Payette with the 'Tec 29 which was graded as a NM copy by Payette, but ended up being graded and slabbed as a CGC 9.6 (i.e. NM/M) copy by CGC.  

The Cap 1 was graded the same by both Payette and CGC at NM/M and CGC 9.6 respectively, while the 'Tec 38 was graded by Payette as being only a VF copy, but managed to garner a CGC 9.4 label when graded by the boys at CGC.    

[lou_fine]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:15 PM, action1kid said:

Being it’s such a small collection of 135 or so books I thought it wouldn’t be very difficult.

Likewise with the Denver pedigree with only 153 books in the entire collection, although I imagine there should be a lot more so-called "keys" in there since they are all #1 issues, albeit not in as superior condition grade as the highly sought after Allentown pedigree books.  

[thedude]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:46 AM, lou_fine said:

I believe you are confusing the 'Tec 27 which was graded as a VF/NM by Payette with the 'Tec 29 which was graded as a NM copy by Payette, but ended up being graded and slabbed as a CGC 9.6 (i.e. NM/M) copy by CGC.  

The Cap 1 was graded the same by both Payette and CGC at NM/M and CGC 9.6 respectively, while the 'Tec 38 was graded by Payette as being only a VF copy, but managed to garner a CGC 9.4 label when graded by the boys at CGC.    

I was just going by what James said himself when he was on Vinnie's "Comic Zone" podcast, when Vinnie asked him what he thought the Tec 27 would grade at. Maybe I remember it wrong, I'll have to go back and listen to it again. Just remember him saying " there was nothing wrong with it"

Edited July 14, 2023 by thedude

[lou_fine]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:46 AM, thedude said:

I was just going by what James said himself when he was on Vinnie's "Comic Zone" podcast, when Vinnie asked him what he thought the Tec 27 would grade at. Maybe I remember it wrong, I'll have to go back and listen to it again. Just remember him saying " there was nothing wrong with it"

Well, I would have to agree with him that there's nothing at all wrong with the book when it is supposed the best existing copy in the world.  

Heck, as word on the street has it, Dave even turfed out the Church copy of 'Tec 27 from his personal collection to keep the Allentown copy since it was in superior condition.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/13/2023 at 8:08 PM, action1kid said:

How many of those books are purple label or conserved?

 

thank you

I've never seen an Allentown book in a PLOD; maybe none of them had enough defects to make anyone want to restore them. Granted, some of the already-high-grade Church books got the amateur treatment with glue and color touch, but I think the stigma against amateur resto was stronger by the time the Allentown collection surfaced.

[lou_fine]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:44 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I've never seen an Allentown book in a PLOD; maybe none of them had enough defects to make anyone want to restore them. Granted, some of the already-high-grade Church books got the amateur treatment with glue and color touch, but I think the stigma against amateur resto was stronger by the time the Allentown collection surfaced.

Bingo..........that would also be my take on the reason for the difference because the Church books came out in the 77/78 time period when restoration was seen as actually adding value to an unrestored book with defects. 

As such, not so different then from today except on a more sophisticated and institutionalized basis where "maximization of potential" (i.e. pressing, cleaning, etc.) is seen as adding value to an Universal unrestored book with "fixable" defects.  

The Allentown books came out in the latter part of the 80's and at a time when the marketplace sentiment had done a complete 180 degree turnaround as restoration by then was viewed to be an absolute no-no and near fraudulent if undisclosed.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by lou_fine

[action1kid]

I agree with the last 2 posts above. Spot on.

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:15 PM, lou_fine said:

The Allentown books came out in the latter part of the 80's and at a time when the marketplace sentiment had done a complete 180 degree turnaround as restoration by then was viewed to be an absolute no-no and near fraudulent if undisclosed.  

Didn't Bill Sarill retire right around that time? He must have sniffed the changing attitudes in the air.

[lou_fine]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:43 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Didn't Bill Sarill retire right around that time? He must have sniffed the changing attitudes in the air.

Just in time for the slow rise of the younger, smarter, and more sophisticasted generation of comic book doctors who are now in subtle, but virtual full control of the certified comic book marketplace nowadays.  

Done so subltely over time without us even realizing it, or maybe we do, as there are now even apparently year long waits for their services.    

Edited July 15, 2023 by lou_fine

[action1kid]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:24 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, I think your question also depends upon your definition of a "key", as I believe each collector here might have their own definition.  

But if you want to take a look at the scans of a whole slew of the Allentown's that are owned by boardies here, just refer back to the Allentown thread here and then decide for yourself:    

My searching skills are absolutely terrible here, but the best source for an answer to your question would be the advanced draft write-up that was compiled for the Allentown Collection.  Especially in terms of the page that had a detailed list of every single one of the 135 Allentown books along with the original grade assigned to each of them by Jim Payette plus the CGC grade for the books that had been slabbed to that point in time.  All I will say is that Jim is a tough tough grader if you compare his grades to the ones assigned by CGC.  The sample article I have is a 9-pager dated December 28th of 2006 which was forwarded to me by West in 2007 when work was being done on the inclusion of the Chinatown pedigree for the yet to be published Pedigree Book.     

I know that there is an updated and more flashier draft write-up for the Allentown Collection that was linked on these boards here, which I hope another boardie with better Search skills can track down for us here.    

 

[lou_fine]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:36 PM, action1kid said:

 

Interesting and a bit surprised to see that the Allentown copies of Wonderworld 13 was graded as as CGC 9.6 copy while Wonderworld 14 was originally graded as only a CGC 8.0 copy.  Especially since both of them were graded as NM raw copies by Payette who has a reputation as a strict grader.    

I remember going down to a Seattle con in the late 90's and Harley had both of these books in his "special box" behind his table.  I remember looking at both of them for the longest time trying to figure out which was the nicer copy to pick up.  It took me forever to decide since both of them looked equally nice, but the cover on WW 13 was slightly better condition wise, while the interior pages on the WW 14 was slightly better condition wise.  I finally decided on the Wonderworld 13 because I figure the cover was more important than the interior pages and 13 was obviously an earlier issue than 14.  

I really should have taken Harley's advice and had simply taken both of them back home with me (even though I had no money on me as per my usual ) because he told me that if I didn't take them, they would be going to Fishler when he heads back East the next week.  Sure enough, Fishler had the Wonderworld 14 listed for sale a couple weeks later at almost double what Harley was asking for the book.  Clearly I did not understood or fully appreciate the true rarity and value of the Allentown pedigree books at that time.  

As for the Allentown copy of Wonderworld 14, if I remember correctly, I believe it is now encased in a slab that's much closer to the original WW 13 CGC 9.6 grade than to the original WW 14 CGC 8.0 grade.  

Edited August 6, 2023 by lou_fine

[action1kid]

I underestimated them also about that time.