Bob Kane Original Art Opinions/Help Wanted (ADVICE GIVEN, THANK YOU). 1 1

[ixng]

I've seen many on here discuss the authenticity of Bob Kane pieces, with many discussing them being forged/faked. At Torpedo Con yesterday, I bought this Kane piece from a very credible dealer, who I trust significantly, but since I'm new to collecting I have anxiety over my first pickup. The first two images are of the piece I purchased, with the ones after that being similar examples seen on Heritage and the PSA website. Something interesting is that on the back of the paper the sketch is on, it says "Whitney Museum of American Art", which Bob Kane has had his art on display there previously, making me think that maybe he did it while there. Using the font the text was printed in, I can determine it's Arial font, putting the piece likely being made in the 80s. How does the piece look? Any immediate issues found? Authentic? Opinions appreciated.

Edited July 25, 2023 by iancomics

[artdealer]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:01 PM, iancomics said:

I've seen many on here discuss the authenticity of Bob Kane pieces, with many discussing them being forged/faked. At Torpedo Con yesterday, I bought this Kane piece from a very credible dealer, who I trust significantly, but since I'm new to collecting I have anxiety over my first pickup. The first two images are of the piece I purchased, with the ones after that being similar examples seen on Heritage and the PSA website. Something interesting is that on the back of the paper the sketch is on, it says "Whitney Museum of American Art", which Bob Kane has had his art on display there previously, making me think that maybe he did it while there. Using the font the text was printed in, I can determine it's Arial font, putting the piece likely being made in the 80s. How does the piece look? Any immediate issues found? Authentic? Opinions appreciated.

Even “credible” dealers can be wrong.

I’m not saying this is a fake or not. 

[Phill the Governor]

Part of the issue is that Kane himself is historically known to forge even his own drawings, paying other artists to do them and passing them off as his own. So the short answer is... aside from comparing the line-work to authentic sketches with detailed provenance, there's no way to know for sure.

Provenance is everything in the art world, and without publication status, a sketch is the easiest thing to make up and pass off as authentic. The existence of the stamp on the back is completely useless as I've personally seen stamps on forged "published" covers that were used to help pass the piece off in the first place.

[BCarter27]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:01 PM, iancomics said:

Opinions appreciated.

Would the Whitney stamp a piece of original art on the back? Seriously not likely.

When was this supposed exhibit? I can't find it on Google. And I don't see anything by him listed on the Whitney site. So this statement feels a little fishy-

Quote

Kane's work is housed in collections in New York City's Museum of Modern Art, Whitney Museum of American Art, and St. John's University

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane

 

I do see two pieces he donated to the MOMA, but if the dates are 1967 as stated, someone else drew them!

https://www.moma.org/artists/30424

(Anybody know anybody at the MOMA? They should change this attribution in their catalog.)

 

If this Whitney exhibit was supposedly before 2015, the Whitney wasn't even at that address-

https://whitney.org/about/history

Quote

Following a move in 1954 to an expanded site on West 54th Street, the Whitney opened the Marcel Breuer-designed building on Madison Avenue at 75th Street in 1963. The iconic building housed the Museum from 1966 through October 20, 2014. The Whitney’s current building at 99 Gansevoort Street opened on May 1, 2015.

 

I'd return that drawing, if I were you!

Edited July 18, 2023 by BCarter27

[Will_K]

I'm no Bob Kane expert but for me, there's 2 main issues with ANY art with Bob Kane's name on it.  First, Bob Kane is generally acknowledged to have signed his name to other artists' work.  Second, totally unrelated parties are motivated to create work and attribute it to Bob Kane for profit.

The clown story is good for a laugh:

 

[ixng]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:56 PM, BCarter27 said:

Would the Whitney stamp a piece of original art on the back? Seriously not likely.

When was this supposed exhibit? I can't find it on Google. And I don't see anything by him listed on the Whitney site. So this statement feels a little fishy-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane

 

I do see two pieces he donated to the MOMA, but if the dates are 1967 as stated, someone else drew them!

https://www.moma.org/artists/30424

(Anybody know anybody at the MOMA? They should change this attribution in their catalog.)

 

If this Whitney exhibit was supposedly before 2015, the Whitney wasn't even at that address-

https://whitney.org/about/history

 

I'd return that drawing, if I were you!

I mean, I'm just so lost. I'm pretty certain it's an authentic Kane piece, the characters are in his style, and his signature and general handwriting look accurate, but the stamp is what confuses me. I'm trying to think of the scenario in which it would have been stamped or who stamped it, because whether it's authentic or not, it has the stamp, which confuses me. But generally, I'm pretty sure it's authentic, and the dealer doesn't do returns.

Edited July 18, 2023 by iancomics

[SkOw]

On 7/17/2023 at 8:44 PM, iancomics said:

I mean, I'm just so lost. I'm pretty certain it's an authentic Kane piece, the characters are in his style, and his signature and general handwriting look accurate, but the stamp is what confuses me. I'm trying to think of the scenario in which it would have been stamped or who stamped it, because whether it's authentic or not, it has the stamp, which confuses me. But generally, I'm pretty sure it's authentic, and the dealer doesn't do returns.

Bob Kane pieces are TOUGH for the reasons mentioned above.  The sig looks authentic but that doesn't mean much about the actuall art.  My advice: Get it authenticated.  If it fails authentication and the dealer still doesn't do returns, then he really isn't a reputable dealer after all.

[grapeape]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:44 PM, iancomics said:

I mean, I'm just so lost. I'm pretty certain it's an authentic Kane piece, the characters are in his style, and his signature and general handwriting look accurate, but the stamp is what confuses me. I'm trying to think of the scenario in which it would have been stamped or who stamped it, because whether it's authentic or not, it has the stamp, which confuses me. But generally, I'm pretty sure it's authentic, and the dealer doesn't do returns.

The stamp should not be considered at all as provenance or proof of authenticity. It doesn't make it real or fake.

I must've passed on 100 "Bob Kane" drawings over the years. I wanted one but always felt uncomfortable with provenance. Kane Batman, along with Schulz Snoopy, are two of the most aped "originals" to seep into the OA world. 

Gratefully, after learning about Bill Finger my heartache from not owning a Kane plummeted to less than zero.

I can't recommend that you try to return it. Maybe it is Kane? Then you'd be sad. However, if you come away desolate over the uncertainty, surely the "credible dealer" would offer trade value of what you paid? To keep a happy customer?

Some issues you face. An insecure dealer who has passed this piece on may not want to take it back if they know about this thread. Doing so in their limited understanding might lay credence to an opinion that the piece is suspect. 
 

I do have some well meant advice though. If ever you have doubts, post to this thread "BEFORE" a purchase. There's an irrational fear that you'll lose a deal, somewhat FOMO related. You could've asked the dealer to HOLD that piece until the end of the day. Make this same post. Make use of what info you could trust. Than buy, or not.  I fear you've only added to your anxiety by posting here. I hope you are able to "authenticate" this in a way that makes you feel certain. It's almost as if you had doubts, but purchased anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Browning]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:12 PM, SkOw said:

Bob Kane pieces are TOUGH for the reasons mentioned above.  The sig looks authentic but that doesn't mean much about the actuall art.  My advice: Get it authenticated.  If it fails authentication and the dealer still doesn't do returns, then he really isn't a reputable dealer after all.

WHO authenticates Bob Kane ART? No one. Not even longtime reputable dealers and Bob Kane experts will not positively authenticate a "Kane" "original" (quotation marks are in the correct places).

[ixng]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:18 PM, grapeape said:

The stamp should not be considered at all as provenance or proof of authenticity. It doesn't make it real or fake.

I must've passed on 100 "Bob Kane" drawings over the years. I wanted one but always felt uncomfortable with provenance. Kane Batman, along with Schulz Snoopy, are two of the most aped "originals" to seep into the OA world. 

Gratefully, after learning about Bill Finger my heartache from not owning a Kane plummeted to less than zero.

I can't recommend that you try to return it. Maybe it is Kane? Then you'd be sad. However, if you come away desolate over the uncertainty, surely the "credible dealer" would offer trade value of what you paid? To keep a happy customer?

Some issues you face. An insecure dealer who has passed this piece on may not want to take it back if they know about this thread. Doing so in their limited understanding might lay credence to an opinion that the piece is suspect. 
 

I do have some well meant advice though. If ever you have doubts, post to this thread "BEFORE" a purchase. There's an irrational fear that you'll lose a deal, somewhat FOMO related. You could've asked the dealer to HOLD that piece until the end of the day. Make this same post. Make use of what info you could trust. Than buy, or not.  I fear you've only added to your anxiety by posting here. I hope you are able to "authenticate" this in a way that makes you feel certain. It's almost as if you had doubts, but purchased anyway.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the advice. 

[tth2]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:18 AM, grapeape said:

If ever you have doubts, post to this thread "BEFORE" a purchase.

This.

[vodou]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:56 PM, BCarter27 said:

1966 through October 20, 2014

OT but they couldn’t hang for just 2 more years, do a big 50 celeb and then move??

[batman_fan]

I have the same opinion as Grapeape, I avoid all “Kane” artwork like the plague.  His work has been forged heavily for at least as long as I have been collecting (1976).  I don’t care where it comes from, it should always be treated skeptically.  If I really wanted to get a piece of GA Batman artwork I would buy a GA page from Batman, Detective, or World’s Finest and just tell myself it was drawn by Kane.

[The Voord]

I wouldn't touch 'Kane' drawings with a barge pole.

Sadly, even if the OP considers it authentic, doubts will now creep in . . . and it doesn't help that this so-called 'credible' dealer won't do returns (which says it all, really).

[jjonahjameson11]

To coincide with the release of the 1989 Batman movie, there was a “Batman and Me” book focused on Bob’s lifelong relationship with the character.  I don’t want to get into a discussion about his taking credit for creating Batman, the Joker, etc. 

however, I do recall there were multiple versions of the book, including a regular hardcover and a signed limited edition (I think it was limited to 2,500 copies?)

Does anyone know if there was a more exclusive printing containing an original “Bob Kane” Batman Illo?

 

[jjonahjameson11]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:22 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

To coincide with the release of the 1989 Batman movie, there was a “Batman and Me” book focused on Bob’s lifelong relationship with the character.  I don’t want to get into a discussion about his taking credit for creating Batman, the Joker, etc. 

however, I do recall there were multiple versions of the book, including a regular hardcover and a signed limited edition (I think it was limited to 2,500 copies?)

Does anyone know if there was a more exclusive printing containing an original “Bob Kane” Batman Illo?

 

Never mind…found an old thread about this book.  Apparently 500 “Bob Kane Batman” and 500 Bob Kane Joker” illos were done for the ultra-deluxe edition of this book.

maybe compare some of these to the Illo you purchased?

 

[ixng]

On 7/18/2023 at 8:02 AM, The Voord said:

I wouldn't touch 'Kane' drawings with a barge pole.

Sadly, even if the OP considers it authentic, doubts will now creep in . . . and it doesn't help that this so-called 'credible' dealer won't do returns (which says it all, really).

Yeah, pretty upset as of now, I don't know what to do.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:32 AM, iancomics said:

Yeah, pretty upset as of now, I don't know what to do.

 In your OP, you mentioned that you purchased it from a very credible dealer.

if so, ask them for a refund or credit

[AndyFish]

Even the Batman and Me illustrated edition is questionable-- do any of you think an elderly Bob Kane, who used ghosts for years, sat and drew 1000 Batman and Joker sketches?

That said, Kane often had his ghosts blue pencil in lines for him and he would finish them.  The ones that look nearly identical were the ones he was comfortable doing.  One of the key things to look for are confidence in the signature and a distinct way of using a single line-- i.e. in the third Heritage Sketch above look at Robin's cheek it's not a single line, its a built up line, or its done with a brush to give it that thin to thick to thin look.  Kane wasn't known to do that on the fly.   I've watched him draw many times over, and he does a very simple set of lines.

When I worked at Unicef he came in for an event and did a bunch of sketches.   When I was in the room I saw the faint pencil lines that were already on the paper.   I ended up buying one of his pieces dirt cheap (I think I paid like $50 for it) and even then I'm not sure he did it.

Bottom line, I think what you have looks legit, at least as legit as any Bob Kane sketch can be.   Hopefully you didn't overpay for it and if you bought it for investment I think you might be in trouble.   If you got it to give to your grandkids in forty years  in a frame as drawn by the guy who co-created Batman, or, more accurately curated the Batman character then you're in the front row.

PS And if you're looking for a possible answer to the stamp-- when Bob was at Unicef--- this was very early 90s- he pulled out a stack of just regular paper and there was either a stamp or an address on the back-- I remember thinking how cheap he was to use such bad paper.  So he could have simply 'borrowed' the paper from the Whitney and they never stamped the original.

Edited July 18, 2023 by AndyFish
Whitney addendum

[pemart1966]

For what it's worth, I owned the "Godson" piece pictured in the OP's first post.  It was done on thick/heavy artist's illustration board.  I owned it for decades.