Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[KirbyJack]

It’s Jack Kirby’s birthday today!

Everyone read something he did!

[sfcityduck]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

Daredevil will be a good example of a couple of things:

a) Again, Stan's inability to do much with a Kirby/Ditko-less character and

b) How, as Kirby pulls back ideas for new books (and the inability for Marvel to hire anyone to write FOR Lee in doing them, suddenly Marvel's House of Idea man Stan Lee dries up in ideas too. Coincidence? No. Lee couldn't come up with any original ideas on his own for the rest of the time he was in charge of Marvel. Yet, he positioned the company as the House of Ideas, and people ate it up.

Some notes on DD:

Goodman acquires the Charlie Biro character Daredevil. Biro’s DD was a ‘Master of Courage’. Marvel would change that to ‘Man without Fear’.

....

Kirby sketches a character, somewhat with his and Simon's Stuntman in mind.

....

Kirby’s original sketch (and of course the name, and the idea that Kirby was channelling Stuntman) gives DD a sort of acrobat vibe and yet, when Lee ‘writes’ DD, he doesn’t follow through on that.

....

Even weirder, a year later when DD guest stars in FF #39-40, Kirby makes use of him with science gadgets that he’d never use anywhere else (These included a pop-out umbrella type shield and a gun which Daredevil uses to shoot down a small flying drone.).

 

Things finally started to gel once WALLY WOOD stepped in for #5 — Wood was one of the industry’s best illustrators and designers, and after taking some small liberties with the costume in his first two issues, he assured the series’ success with #7 when he revamped the character completely, creating the all-red outfit that has defined Daredevil ever since."

 

Me: Unfortunately for DD it would peak in sales in 1968 (mainly benefitted by the entire line peaking), and then drop every year in sales for the next 10 years. Really, DD was pretty much a THIRD tier character (down to 110,000 in the late 70's!) for most of its run, and wouldn’t see real growth until Frank Miller rewrote new life into the character in the 80’s.

 

I'm really having trouble following your thought process here.  You claim that DD proves that Lee couldn't come up with his own ideas without Kirby's help. Yet, your narrative here proves the opposite.

Kirby apparently came up with a character sketch that portrayed DD as in another outfit derived from the Captain America style that Kirby was so found of recycling: A cowled unitard with shorts and boots and two contrasting colors. Yet, you say that the best thing that happened in the first 10 issues is Wally Wood dumped Kirby's costume design.

Hard to conclude that Stan wasn't capable of creativity given that he apparently rejected Kirby's "acrobat" idea (yet another S&K retreading of Robin) in favor the much better blind attorney concept, and didn't imbue DD with the scientific gadgets that Kirby apparently thought the character had (suggesting that was his concept of the character).

Not at all surprising that Lee relied upon radioactivity for the character's origin given this was a prevailing trope in the wake of the Atomic bomb, and one we saw repeatedly used by Marvel with FF, Spiderman, etc. DD's origin, like the GA DD and Spiderman and Wildcat and many other superheroes, was a riff on the Batman origin story - parent/guardian/mentor getting murdered. This also is not surprising. 

The comic industry was very prone to use character origins and designs that were retreads of prior concepts. What made Marvel special was the characterizations not the character designs or origins - which generally were not at all original. Yes, Marvel was a House of Ideas, but the original ideas were not the Human Torch (revamp of GA character), Mr. Fantastic (Plastic Man ripoff), Invisible Girl (Invisible Scarlett O'Neill) etc., it was the way the stories were told. The characterizations and themes. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:21 PM, KirbyJack said:

It’s Jack Kirby’s birthday today!

Everyone read something he did!

My favorite Jack Kirby work is, surprisingly enough, Boys' Ranch. As I've gotten older I've realized that GA and SA comics are not particularly profound, but they sure can be fun!  Boys' Ranch is just a very fun and relaxing read. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 - Written in the White Heat of Inspiration by: Stan Lee     Drawn in a Wild Frenzy of Enthusiasm by: Steve Ditko     Lettered in a Comfortable Room by: Art Simek

Cover by Steve Ditko

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 - Letters Page

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/28/2023 at 3:21 PM, KirbyJack said:

It’s Jack Kirby’s birthday today!

Everyone read something he did!

Probably a good time for me to re-read The Glory Boat!

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:31 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 -

Part TWO:

 

On 8/28/2023 at 9:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 - Written in the White Heat of Inspiration by: Stan Lee     Drawn in a Wild Frenzy of Enthusiasm by: Steve Ditko     Lettered in a Comfortable Room by: Art Simek

Cover by Steve Ditko

Part ONE:

One of my all time favorite Ditko and  Spider-Man cover and story. 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:21 PM, KirbyJack said:

It’s Jack Kirby’s birthday today!

Everyone read something he did!

My plan will be this, but tomorrow ( late here on East Coast and Mrs watcher wants me to sleep. Lol) . So tomorrow I will read Kamandi #1 ,Demon # 1 and Mister Miracle # 1. I will give some reviews on them in a few days. Long Live The King of Comics! Jack "King"Kirby! 

Edited August 29, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking

[Doctor Dositheus]

On 8/28/2023 at 8:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 - Letters Page

Interesting to see Dave Cockrum's letter. A master of costume design commenting on how much he liked Electro's costume!

[Dr. Haydn]

What have we here? Looks like Lee-Ditko (almost!) on the sign (panels 4 and 5).

[Prince Namor]

“I can’t understand people who read comics!” Lee tells Resnais. “I wouldn’t read them if I had the time and wasn’t in the business. I might look through them and read something good in comics but I’ve got so many other interests!"

- Stan Lee, 1969

 

Full Story:

Stan Lee's 1969 Dinner with Alain Resnais

[sfcityduck]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:05 PM, Prince Namor said:

“I can’t understand people who read comics!” Lee tells Resnais. “I wouldn’t read them if I had the time and wasn’t in the business. I might look through them and read something good in comics but I’ve got so many other interests!"

- Stan Lee, 1969

 

Full Story:

Stan Lee's 1969 Dinner with Alain Resnais

I get that attitude. Few people want to spend their leisure time on their work. I avoid lawyer shows or movies. But Lee does say he would read good comics and Lee also clearly did understand comic readers of the 1960s as his rapport with them was undeniable. Interesting artifact. The sense you get from those excerpts is that Stan wanted more from life than comics.  Ironically, so did Kirby. He had moved to LA in hopes of maybe doing movie work. Jack and Stan were more alike than they knew. 

[jimjum12]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:30 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack and Stan were more alike than they knew. 

Once they split up it was like one leg trying to walk down the boulevard without the other leg. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Dr. Haydn]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:30 AM, sfcityduck said:

I get that attitude. Few people want to spend their leisure time on their work. I avoid lawyer shows or movies. But Lee does say he would read good comics and Lee also clearly did understand comic readers of the 1960s as his rapport with them was undeniable. Interesting artifact. The sense you get from those excerpts is that Stan wanted more from life than comics.  Ironically, so did Kirby. He had moved to LA in hopes of maybe doing movie work. Jack and Stan were more alike than they knew. 

 

According to Mark Evanier:

In early 1969, the Kirbys moved west. The main reason was daughter Lisa's asthma and her need to live in a drier climate [than in New York State]. But Jack had another reason. ... Kirby had hopes that being close to Hollywood might bring him entry to the movie business. ... Film seemed like the next logical outlet for his creativity. ...

Edited August 31, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
typo

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Tales to Astonish #55 - Story by: Happy Stan Lee     Art by: Heroic MR. Ayers     Lettering by: Honest Art Simek

Cover by Jack Kirby (inked by Sol Brodsky)

Ant-Man continues to struggle for any sort of creativity featuring either the Human Top or the Porcupine as the villain in 5 of the last 8 issues. With Ayers or Heck, Stan Lee just can't seem to get the same level of work out of them, and the last year of this would really be a slog.

He'll continue to use what little ideas he has personally to try and guide them (the silly 'fan club' appearances, the guest stars, the repeat of lame villains), but minus Kirby or Ditko, this run is just lame and the perfect example of what Marvel would've been without those two.

Even worse, Ayers and Heck struggle to make stories flesh out for a whole issue. They're up from 12 to 18 pages on some, but as an example in this story, it just leads to really bad storytelling. 3 whole pages are used up just for Giant-Man and the Wasp LEAVING their lab. 

Hailing a cab? Deciding to walk? Trapped inside a closet?

 And the Wasp continues to be the worst character, and a perfect example of Stan's view of women. 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Tales to Astonish #55 -

The pill swallowing gimmick in mid-battle is just goofy. It takes Giant-Man two whole pages to escape from a closet (with the help of his ants). Giant-man can contact termite's as well?

My favorite line in the whole comic: "As long as I have you for a hostage, Giant-man won't dare to attack me again even if he manages to free himself from that locked closet!"

Yeah... THAT'S written for an older audience. LOL.

Part TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Tales to Astonish #55 - Story Plot: Stan Lee   Script and Art: L.D. Lieber   Inking: George Bell (Roussous)   Lettering: Morrie Kuramoto (credited as Sherigail) - there's one for you lettering sleuths!

Seriously? We're going to follow that dingbat story with a Wasp feature?

Of course it's not actually a Wasp feature, it's just a wrap around to help fill out an already weak 3 page story (most likely culled from the library of stories bought from year's worth of Writer's Digest solicitations). Ugh.

[shadroch]

Eight-year-old shadrochs favorite hero was Giant-Man.  He was impressed with the wordsmith who took Ant-Man and added two letters to create Gi-Ant man. He liked that Hank and Jan fought the same few bad guys all the time, so half the story wasn't wasted introducing some new guy. Eight-year-old shadroch remembers thinking how brilliant it was that Hank could call ants to his rescue.  Eight-year-old shadroch liked that these stories were self-contained, and I wasn't buying part of a multi-issue story that I walked into the middle of.

I liked these stories more than Spidey or the FF as an eight-year-old.  That isn't the case as an adult, but I think back then, more eight-year-olds were buying comics than adults. Tales To Astonish evolved, as did the books readers.

A good editor knows his audience.   A good editor knows how to take a few pieces of unused art, add an old story out of inventory, and turn it into a Wasp story.

A good critic understands context. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by shadroch

[gunsmokin]

On 8/28/2023 at 8:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #12 - Letters Page

Paul Feola published the fanzine Comic World News and was buddies with George RR Martin.