A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[VintageComics]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:05 PM, valiantman said:

 

If you're implying I'm Neo....well, I have been sleepless lately and nobody has any idea how to do the things I do...but I can neither confirm nor deny. 

The way I see it unfolding regarding the machines is two distinct steps.

1) whichever team (Marvel, DC, Image, erc) gets the best AI wins....

2) hopefully the AI doesn't start publishing it's own comic books. That would be really bad for the hobby.

 

[VintageComics]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:34 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

So how do you reconcile that?

The only way to figure that out is to have an open discussion about it, which is why I started this thread. 

I think many are either totally ignorant about their own ignorance about how impactful this is and others are absolutely in a state of denial because they have a vested interest in the outcome, and so I think MOST people still have no clue what's coming. 

But EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. that I talk to that knows anything about tech is terrified of AI. Terrified. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by VintageComics

[Jesse-Lee]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:40 PM, VintageComics said:

The only way to figure that out is to have an open discussion about it, which is why I started this thread. 

I think many are either totally ignorant about their own ignorance about how impactful this is and others are absolutely in a state of denial because they have a vested interest in the outcome, and so I think MOST people still have no clue what's coming. 

But ever. Single. Person. that I talk to that knows anything about tech is terrified of AI. Terrified. 

We're in the Wild West days of AI right now. I've definitely used it to help get me started writing video scripts, cleaning up HTML code, etc. I'm not using it to do my work for me, but basically as a faster, more efficient "Google" - where before if I had a code issue I'd Google it and find a solution, now I can ask ChatGPT and I have an answer in seconds without looking. I haven't really dug into the purely creative aspects of it before now - writing, art, etc. - but the more I do, the more I understand why pure creatives are so concerned. And I understand there are more powerful AI instances out there than ChatGPT (which as of now seems like the "fun" intro to AI). So I think you're spot on, and I can see why it would potentially be terrifying. It sounds hyperbolic to say, but to put it in comic book terms, it seems like it really could have the potential to be an Ultron-like entity if left unchecked.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Jesse-Lee

[VintageComics]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:50 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

We're in the Wild West days of AI right now. I've definitely used it to help get me started writing video scripts, cleaning up HTML code, etc. I'm not using it to do my work for me, but basically as a faster, more efficient "Google" - where before if I had a code issue I'd Google it and find a solution, now I can ask ChatGPT and I have an answer in seconds without looking. I haven't really dug into the purely creative aspects of it before now - writing, art, etc. - but the more I do, the more I understand why pure creatives are so concerned. And I understand there are more powerful AI instances out there than ChatGPT (which as of now seems like the "fun" intro to AI). So I think you're spot on, and I can see why it would potentially be terrifying. It sounds hyperbolic to say, but to put it in comic book terms, it seems like it really could have the potential to be an Ultron-like entity if left unchecked.

The Ultron analogy is spot on. 

AI, loosely speaking, works on a spectrum of options if I understand it correctly. 

It then chooses the 'best option' in logic flow manner, only it does it so quickly it can make a zillion decisions in a zillionth of a second. 

So then, it's ONLY A MATTER OF TIME before those options start probing territory into where it shouldn't go (meaning it's bad for humans).

And it will inevitably make it there. It's just a matter of time. 

The comic book industry (or the writer's industry in Hollywood) is the perfect analogy to the Ultron analogy. 

And Hollywood (and everyone else in comics) seem to be in denial that this AI takeover is inevitable.

Just like the general public was in denial with streaming, Napster, etc. Only a few people (like Metallica) caught on early, could foresee what was happening and tried to fight it....but because the rest around them didn't have their backs it was a losing battle with no hope or effort to stem the tide. 

Metallica actually COULD have been more successful but it would have taken a groundswell of support from the industry and the General public and then changes in laws to accomodate stiff consequences against those who ripped off the artists.

But because nobody really understood the far reaching implications, not enough cared and here we are decimating the revenue stream of the ENTIRE music industry. 

I see what happened in the 90's with Napster as a parallel to AI in comics now. 

Now WHY laws WEREN'T changed to protect artists more in the 90's is another very interesting discussion, but there ARE some who want us to remain dumb and blind consumers and I believe that philosophy is behind why things turned out the way they did. What better way to blind the public and slip anything you want under them than to give them all the free entertainment they want. 

Give them Gladiators like they did in Rome and you will have their attention and their affection. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by VintageComics

[Jesse-Lee]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:01 PM, VintageComics said:

The Ultron analogy is spot on. 

AI, loosely speaking, works on a spectrum of options if I understand it correctly. 

It then chooses the 'best option' in logic flow manner, only it does it so quickly it can make a zillion decisions in a zillionth of a second. 

So then, it's ONLY A MATTER OF TIME before those options start probing territory into where it shouldn't go (meaning it's bad for humans).

And it will inevitably make it there. It's just a matter of time. 

The comic book industry (or the writer's industry in Hollywood) is the perfect analogy to the Ultron analogy. 

And Hollywood (and everyone else in comics) seem to be in denial that this AI takeover is inevitable.

Just like the general public was in denial with streaming, Napster, etc. Only a few people (like Metallic) caught on early, could foresee what was happening and tried to fight it....but because the rest around them didn't have their backs it was a losing battle with no hope or effort to stem the tide. 

Metallica actually COULD have been more successful but it would have taken a groundswell of support from the industry and the General public and then changes in laws to accomodate stiff consequences against those who ripped off the artists.

But because nobody really understood the far reaching implications, not enough cared and here we are decimating the revenue stream of the ENTIRE music industry. 

I see what happened in the 90's with Napster as a parallel to AT in comics now. 

Now WHY laws weren't changed to protect artists more in the 90's is another very interesting discussion, but there ARE some who want us to remain dumb and blind consumers and I believe that philosophy is behind why things turned out the way they did. What better way to blind the public and slip anything you want under them than to give them all the free entertainment they want. 

Give them Gladiators like they did and Rome and you will have their affection. 

 

Yes, I think these are all great points. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm 45. I learned typing in high school on typewriters, but I also learned how to use computers from an early age, first using LOGO on Apple IIc's in elementary school, then learning HyperCard (an HTML precursor) on Macs in high school. We had a PC in our house my junior year, with a 50MB hard drive but no internet. In order to load programs on it, we had to understand how to use DOS because we didn't have Windows.

I first got onto the web in college, and by the time I was leaving college, we had accelerated to the point where I was using Napster to download mp3 audio - we're talking a massive leap in tech in 4-5 years, one that meant the fall of stores like Tower Records, not to mention the mom and pop shops. Even my grocery store back then sold CDs before the advent of digital media. Fast forward a couple of years (or less) and we were downloading actual video - I remember my buddy telling me he had downloaded the entire Fellowship of the Ring movie! Then came the death of Blockbuster and all of the other video stores and the emergence of Netflix et al.

But the crazy thing is, the peer-to-peer nature of downloads and disruption didn't stop at pure tech - when you think about it, Uber and AirBnB are just another form of peer-to-peer networking, just physical rather than digital. So there goes taxis, hotels, etc. (I know it didn't kill those like it did physical media, but the effects are there). I worked for a major metro newspaper after college, and it's on its last legs at this point obviously.

When each tech revolution comes, it disrupts itself, but the repercussions are felt far beyond just the digital. Autonomous driving, automated industrial applications, automated service industry - these are all ultimately what we're headed toward. It may start in digital and creative services, but the implications in every sector are huge and undeniable.

So where does that leave us?  For example, when you move beyond autonomous driving to a vehicle that can assess its own damage or issues, schedule itself an automated service check, navigate to a service center where it receives automated repair from mechanic robots... What does Gomer Pyle who would have worked at the service station do at that point? Does that then open the conversation for Universal Basic Income? Where does that come from, especially if corporations are either not on board, or (more likely) find a new way to monetize automated processes without replacing the jobs that were displaced? As you slowly follow each thread, it's easy to see why people are terrified.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Jesse-Lee

[WolverineX]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:30 PM, VintageComics said:

 

The far reaching implications are so obvious to me. We're seeing an entire decimation of the need for MOST human involvement but the elimination of most of the creative team seems inevitable. 

 

AI will eventually take over everything.  The question is if capitalism will continue because it will get ugly if so. 

[namisgr]

As long as the processes for creative writing and novel artistry are not well understood at a computational level, as is true now and for the short-term future at least, machine learning can be expected to fall short of human endeavor, and the best comic book writers and artists have little to fear for their jobs.  But in an industry that continues to also pump out formulaic product lacking in deep creativity or novelty, there's likely a place for machine-generated material within comic book creation.

I wonder what it'll be like trying to negotiate with robot dealers at comic cons...

[AJD]

On 9/3/2023 at 9:35 PM, namisgr said:

I wonder what it'll be like trying to negotiate with robot dealers at comic cons...

In some cases the increase in empathy from the dealer will be refreshing.

[sledgehammer]

"Step away from the AF 15. You have 5 seconds to comply."

[alexgross.com]

AI has already replaced many creative art jobs such as illustratior and graphic designer. how many newspapers now use AI generated images to accompany articles instead of paying someone to make a piece of art? it's sure to replace jobs in the comic art business too unfortunately.

right now, it's still fairly obvious and less than exciting when AI imagery is used in a comic like your friends examples above. it's neat that he can make this all himself, but it does not have much personality to a discerning eye. before too long though, i imagine that midjourney and other apps will truly be able to ape in a non-obvious way the best comic artists working in the field now or in the past. do you like j scott campbell and neal adams? a truly sophisticated AI will be able to synthesize those into a fascinating and possibly even good looking drawing style, hard as it is to fathom. you can even decide if you want a more klaus janson inking look or a josef rubenstein, for example. right now that's not an option, thankfully. but it will happen. 

there's no doubt that as AI continues to improve, it will displace more and more creative jobs in the art biz, movie biz, music biz, comics, etc. it's also replacing jobs in medicine (radiology) law (paralegal) and many other significant high paying fields. 

it appears we will be facing a major crisis when we get to the point where a huge number of jobs have been eliminated due to AI. it's just a matter of time. how we handle it will be one of the great pressing questions of the next decade or two. 

 

[themagicrobot]

Will AI destroy music or enhance it?

We now have Frank Sinatra singing Walk on the Wild Side which is something he never did when alive. Will there eventually have to be new ways of trademarking peoples voices or likenesses of to prevent another Wild West. Will it be legitimate to ask AI to produce a graphic novel in the style of Alan Moore and Brian Bolland or will that in the future become a new copyright infringement? We might end up with the potential to be free to do everything we can conceive but in reality unable to do hardly anything

Edited September 3, 2023 by themagicrobot

[Old Fashion PB and J]

That AI comic shared is at best complete trash. The art is horrific, it lacks, well anything. Maybe there is a future for it, but I am certainly not in that market.

[namisgr]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:12 AM, alexgross.com said:

how many newspapers now use AI generated images to accompany articles instead of paying someone to make a piece of art?

 

I read two newspapers every day.  I don't see AI generated images being published in place of art.  Plus, the vast majority of art accompanying articles is photography.  Schematic illustrations are different, having used in whole or part computer programmed material for at least 30 years now.

I've also read the position statements of some of the most widely used and read news services, and none uses generative AI for images.  Instead, it's short news stories especially in technical topics like business and economics or short local stories to turn sets of facts and information into small pieces for publication.  For major and national stories, AI is being used for information gathering and fact checking, but not story generation in the absence of human creative control.

Here's the approaches currently in use by Associated Press, Newsquest Media Group, The Guardian, and NewsCorp Australia.  It also makes mention of local news outlets generating small stories using AI: Robot reporters? Here’s how news organisations are using AI in journalism

What the future holds is an open question (e.g., will generative AI ever be able to create a great comic book?), and I'm relieved to see the current period being used to raise concerns and questions, with the hope of formulating restrictions to mitigate problems before they start.

Edited September 3, 2023 by namisgr

[Ken Aldred]

The art in Roy's example is just as soulless and lazy-looking as the photo referenced art by creators such as Greg Horn was, back in the 90s.  Photo images with a bit of additional rendering on top by the artist.

Still some way to go.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[alexgross.com]

On 9/3/2023 at 7:52 AM, namisgr said:

I read two newspapers every day.  I don't see AI generated images being published in place of art.  Plus, the vast majority of art accompanying articles is photography.  Schematic illustrations are different, having used in whole or part computer programmed material for at least 30 years now.

I've also read the position statements of some of the most widely used and read news services, and none uses generative AI for images.  Instead, it's short news stories especially in technical topics like business and economics or short local stories to turn sets of facts and information into small pieces for publication.  For major and national stories, AI is being used for information gathering and fact checking, but not story generation in the absence of human creative control.

Here's the approaches currently in use by Associated Press, Newsquest Media Group, The Guardian, and NewsCorp Australia.  It also makes mention of local news outlets generating small stories using AI: Robot reporters? Here’s how news organisations are using AI in journalism

What the future holds is an open question (e.g., will generative AI ever be able to create a great comic book?), and I'm relieved to see the current period being used to raise concerns and questions, with the hope of formulating restrictions to mitigate problems before they start.

there may be less AI than it appears currently in newspaper illustration. however, the use of stock imagery in all major newspapers (these 2 examples are from the NYT and WSJ this week) has been quite common for many years now, and seems likely to soon be replaced by AI generated imagery, as it will save costs. one person who knows how to write prompts can save all stock usage fees and possibly all fees for outside artists. 

before photoshop, illustrator and other apps made it simple to make small spot illustrations for print and digital media, all magazines and newspapers employed thousands of illustrators for every image that you saw. many of them were my teachers, friends and colleagues. now, most of these places employ one in-house artist/graphic designer, feature a lot of stock imagery from getty and other sources, and occasionally pay a name artist for a major article. the NYT is better than most at continuing to employ illustrators, as is the new yorker. but overall, most papers rarely do so and this number will continue to drop. 

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/3/2023 at 3:12 PM, alexgross.com said:

you can even decide if you want a more klaus janson inking look or a josef rubenstein, for example. right now that's not an option, thankfully. but it will happen. 

 

In some cases it might be an interesting tool to play around with.

Just looking at some Silver Age Thor comics and thinking how much I hate Vince Colletta's scratchy inking, and wished I could see his work obliterated and replaced by inking in the style of Chic Stone, his far superior predecessor.

It's a grey area.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[shadroch]

Those who live in fear and expect that things will go badly usually find they were right.  As are those who don't, and expect things will go smoothly. It's funny how that works out. 

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:19 AM, shadroch said:

Those who live in fear and expect that things will go badly usually find they were right.  As are those who don't, and expect things will go smoothly. It's funny how that works out. 

My goal is to spend zero time worrying about major societal changes I can't impact one way or another and working hard on the ones I can.

[toro]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:45 PM, VintageComics said:

The younger version looks like Jaime Farr

[VintageComics]

On 9/3/2023 at 1:19 PM, shadroch said:

Those who live in fear and expect that things will go badly usually find they were right.  As are those who don't, and expect things will go smoothly. It's funny how that works out. 

That's not true at all. Sometimes you can fear something and it doesn't come to pass and visa versa. This is about as scientific as rolling dice. 

There are millions of people standing to lose their livelihoods in the literal blink of an eye. 

Maybe they should just get a support animal and stop worrying? 

------------------------------------------

Negative emotion is a far more powerful motivator than positive emotion. This is indisputable.

That's is why media preys on people's fears - you get a FAR MORE visceral and immediate reaction be touching people's fears than by appealing to their good senses. 

But fear is also one of the most important attributes we have. Fear of loss, fear of injury, fear of betrayal...all of these things put us on guard and make us aware of our surroundings to keep us safe both.

Can you imagine humans not having the ability to fear?

"Honey, there's a Tyrannosaurus Rex outside out door."

"Oh sweet. Imma go pet it...."

***CRUNCH!***

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by VintageComics