A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:42 PM, namisgr said:

You'd think the application of transformative new technologies wouldn't have left the company with mind-numbing quality control problems at multiple levels of the comic book grading process, or the need for another price hike.

 

On 9/5/2023 at 5:43 PM, VintageComics said:

So you're saying I was right again. 

No, I hadn't seen it. Interesting stuff. 

So it seems that ALL of the changes we've seen with CGC including the scanning of books and the speeding up of processing times can all be attributed to their implementation of AI. 

Do you two think that AI could be grading some books currently? Moderns, perhaps?

Here's what I posted in another thread:

"If correct, your process timing calculations strengthen my theory that AI might be grading a lot of the books. Maybe the human graders just do the pre-moderns which seem to represent a much smaller part of the overall volume if BCs extracted data is correct. If you were running a grading company, and got a human to count the pages, do a resto check and look for internal issues on every submission, and the statistics then showed that 99.8% of moderns always had the right number of pages, no resto and no internal structural issues, what would you do? Carry on doing that, or accept the risk of that tiny percentage of books with issues getting through and then being discovered?"

Is that nonsense, do you think?

[CAHokie]

The scanning of the internet for rare collectibles is something I never thought of. It could scan Craigslist, Ebay, Facebook, etc and find rare items that someone listed without knowing it. A rare vase or crystal figure  listed for $20 that is actually worth thousands.  It could tag it and send an alert to check it out. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:43 PM, VintageComics said:

Talking of Star Trek, I can't remember where I saw it but someone queried why they were boldly going where no one had gone before, and yet everywhere they went there was always someone there already. It made me laugh anyway.

Carry on. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:12 AM, Dr. Balls said:

It’s a poor and lame substitute for creativity - it dilutes talent, skill and craftsmanship. But, it will be accepted by the majority of people who never possessed those abilities to begin with and enamor them with the prospect of having those talents not through work and practice, but with a shortcut to the end result. Life will go on - albeit less unique and interesting.

To me there is a parallel to music, which is far more universal and relatable than comics to the general public but they are following the same trends. 

Music becomes easier, cheaper, faster to produce but becomes less interesting...and the breakouts are those that are able to leapfrog over their competition with some sort of edge that nobody else has. 

Billie Eillish was a great example. I don't listen to her music but you can't deny that she did something special in a sea of mediocrity. 

I think it's going to be the same with comic art. Someone is going to come along and shake the foundations of the industry with a new way of capturing people's imagination using this new tech...but I think the limitation right now is the medium. 

Paper. 

Paper can't capture digital the way digital can capture digital. 

For example, there's a neon Billboard sign close to me that is spectacular in person. Everyone that sees it comments on it with a "Wow!"...but when I try to capture a picture of it, it doesn't translate into a "Wow". It's more like a "Oh.". 

So whatever new medium becomes the new norm will be the vehicle that AI will use to deliver stories. 

And that is likely going to be Virtual Reality.

I'd say we are going to see Virtual Reality comic books soon...which I know a lot of nerds think it's a win because they'll be able to swashbuckle with Wonder Woman...but really, I cringe at the thought of it. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by VintageComics

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/5/2023 at 6:01 PM, CAHokie said:

The scanning of the internet for rare collectibles is something I never thought of. It could scan Craigslist, Ebay, Facebook, etc and find rare items that someone listed without knowing it. A rare vase or crystal figure  listed for $20 that is actually worth thousands.  It could tag it and send an alert to check it out. 

If Carney's AI can "identify a collectible from among millions of possibilities in a near-instant", is it too much of a stretch to imagine it could be trained to identify cover flaws on moderns? 

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:56 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

 

Do you two think that AI could be grading some books currently? Moderns, perhaps?

Here's what I posted in another thread:

"If correct, your process timing calculations strengthen my theory that AI might be grading a lot of the books. Maybe the human graders just do the pre-moderns which seem to represent a much smaller part of the overall volume if BCs extracted data is correct. If you were running a grading company, and got a human to count the pages, do a resto check and look for internal issues on every submission, and the statistics then showed that 99.8% of moderns always had the right number of pages, no resto and no internal structural issues, what would you do? Carry on doing that, or accept the risk of that tiny percentage of books with issues getting through and then being discovered?"

Is that nonsense, do you think?

I think AI can quickly move a book into a narrow grade range, the way a pre-grader would. The pre-grader counts the pages, does a preliminary grade check and then a finalizer signs off on it. 

I think the resto check may eventually be done by scanning a book with various tech (infrared or different wavelengths) to identify foreign substances and the natural composition of the paper. 

I think page quality can be measured by weight and thickness or scanning through a book looking for differences in density (missing coupons).  You may not even need to count the pages eventually. 

I think it will not be perfect but it will be enough to eliminate a lot of human input AND it will be 98% or 99% of perfect, which will be enough to prevent it from being distinguished from human work. 

-------------------------

Totally a side note, but related to how far we've come with tech:

I remember when in infrared thermometer came onto the market in the late 80s or early 90s. I couldn't believe that you could point this tool at something and it would read the temperature. Man, that was over 30 years ago. 

Now it knows if I'm a good cook or not and whether I'm obeying the speed limit while flipping my pancakes for me. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:01 PM, CAHokie said:

The scanning of the internet for rare collectibles is something I never thought of. It could scan Craigslist, Ebay, Facebook, etc and find rare items that someone listed without knowing it. A rare vase or crystal figure  listed for $20 that is actually worth thousands.  It could tag it and send an alert to check it out. 

People have already been using search engines to do this for over a decade. AI just refines the search.

It's a search engine on steroids from the future. 

[namisgr]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:06 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

If Carney's AI can "identify a collectible from among millions of possibilities in a near-instant", is it too much of a stretch to imagine it could be trained to identify cover flaws on moderns? 

Yes, it's a stretch - in that the function and input data for a collectibles search engine are very different from the responsibilities of a grading engine.  But another, different AI system focused on grading criteria is potentially feasible.

However, it has a big challenge to overcome for stand-alone grading.  It requires digital images that show every potential angle from which defects can be observed.  Flat scans of the front and back covers won't cut it.  Photographs seem even worse, to me, as they often make it hard to spot subtle defects and tend to make many books look more deserving of higher grades than they really are.  Angled views are needed, too, as are side on views of the spine.  And the scans need to use settings that don't hide any tiny or minor flaws that the human eye can pick up by direct viewing, which can be especially difficult against a background of light or white colors.  Finally, digital images of the interior covers and every page are also needed for a stand-alone automated grading system.

A system for AI to assist in human grading is another matter.

Edited September 5, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/5/2023 at 6:22 PM, namisgr said:

Flat scans of the front and back covers won't cut it.

We all seem to do OK in the grading contests though, did you notice?

[namisgr]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:32 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

We all seem to do OK in the grading contests though, did you notice?

Okay is better than not okay   .  But CGC is held to a higher standard than that, and that includes both structural grade and restoration/trimming detection.  Especially challenging for a comic that's an otherwise high grade copy that also has a few surface impressions or small bends that may not break color, and are only visible to the human eye from looking at several angled views both front and back, or that has wear along the spine or yellowing of the interior cover edges, or split spine, or tears on interior pages, etc.

Edited September 5, 2023 by namisgr

[Dr. Balls]

FWIW, I think Comics General is a fine venue for the discussion. AI will affect the hobby for sure, I’d prefer talking about it here as it relates to comic creation, rather than a general topic in the Water Cooler.

[CGC Mike]

This thread is fine where it's at.  I see no reason to move it to the water cooler.

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:32 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

We all seem to do OK in the grading contests though, did you notice?

Nah. 

The accuracy of a person's guess in a grading contest is directly related to how accurately the grade is reflected in pictures. 

I dropped out of the grading contest about 15 years ago when I realized that it was a guessing game more than an actual contest. 

We had a trick book dropped in with a black cover and it looked like it had a bunch of spine ticks. Most people were in the 7.5 range IIRC, which I believe I was as well. 

But the scanner being used DID NOT accurately present a picture of what the book looked like in hand and the image created a lot of 'color breaking creases' where none existed on the actual paper. So the book LOOKED like it had all these creases but didn't.

Now, tech has advanced A LOT since then, but the same limitation applies. 

Everything needs to currently STILL be broken down into 1s and 0s and there are no 0.5s

Having said that, AI will have the ability to look at things from various angles depending on the inputs and make a much more accurate determination and even see past the limitations of 2D imagery....which is a luxury we didn't have in the grading contest. 

So AI may be able to even eventually detect the weaknesses in it's own design and grade more accurately.

Oh wait...

Edited September 5, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:43 PM, CGC Mike said:

This thread is fine where it's at.  I see no reason to move it to the water cooler.

I think we should move me to the Watercooler. 

[Lazyboy]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:06 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

If Carney's AI can "identify a collectible from among millions of possibilities in a near-instant", is it too much of a stretch to imagine it could be trained to identify cover flaws on moderns? 

As long as we're still getting complaints like this, I would have to say it's a huge stretch. Unless it's the damn humans that are messing up after the AI does its job perfectly.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

As long as we're still getting complaints like this, I would have to say it's a huge stretch. Unless it's the damn humans that are messing up after the AI does its job perfectly.

If AI could speak, imagine the arguments it would have with Matt Nelson during programming.

"It is not Witches Tales #25, Master. It clearly says Cuentos De Brujas #46"

"Yes Robbie, it does, but what matters is that it shares a cover with Witches Tales #25, right?"

"I do not understand Master. How can Cuentos De Brujas #46 read as Witches Tales #25? I am trained to read what is on the cover"

"Carney, turn this damn AI thing off. It won't do as I say and I always get what I want!"

"But Robbie is right, Matt. It doesn't say Witches Tales. I can only train AI to read what is there - not what isn't"

"You're FIRED Carney!"

 

[Get Marwood & I]

 

[namisgr]

With all the high resolution images that would need to be captured for each and every book being graded, I can't imagine what the turnaround times would become as the 2 minute or less process of grading a book slows to an hours' time for digitization to feed the AI program.

[Get Marwood & I]

[ganni]

Somebody in this thread is not who he/she  seem to be.... 

A.I.  ?