A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:37 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

I wonder if there will be any AI grading of collectibles? I could see sports cards and coins because they have to just scan just 2 sides, but for comic books, it might be a challenge to open up the comic and look at every page, plus count pages.

 

It should be really simple, especially if thousands of copies of each card have been seen by the data driving the AI. You would be able to determine angles on corners, width, length, centering, quality of print, etc., and even include percentiles automatically.

This card is at the 50th percentile on centering and angle of corners, in the top 10% on the number of printing defects, however, the width is in the bottom 3% and the card has likely been trimmed.

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:37 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

I wonder if there will be any AI grading of collectibles? I could see sports cards and coins because they have to just scan just 2 sides, but for comic books, it might be a challenge to open up the comic and look at every page, plus count pages.

 

I don't want robotic arms turning the pages on books I'm having graded.

[valiantman]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:42 AM, Dr. Balls said:

On 9/11/2023 at 3:09 PM, valiantman said:

A.I. wasn't even needed. We did it to ourselves.

This is what I think as well. If the human race needs to develop a computer to do the thinking for us and do it faster, doesn't that say a lot about how we've lost the handle on managing ourselves as a species?

It really gets into some philosophical (and possibly even religious) thinking, when you start asking these kinds of questions. There are eight billion people on the planet, how many know how to find food continuously without stores or restaurants? How many would have clean water for months if it didn't come through their pipes?  We can drive thousands of miles from home without any knowledge of how the engine works except "put gas in when the line points towards E". We don't actually understand how the internet works, except how to turn the router off and back on. In each case, there are only a few humans who control the things I've listed for the billions of others who hope those few humans will always be there doing those things.  AI seems to freak people out because they think the number of humans in charge would drop to almost zero. Compared to eight billion people alive right now, the number of humans who know how things actually work in our lifetimes has always been almost zero. But, by all means, let's freak out about computers that still put six fingers on the hands of a drawing in a computer-generated graphic novel about... some fiction something.

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/13/2023 at 9:12 AM, valiantman said:

It really gets into some philosophical (and possibly even religious) thinking, when you start asking these kinds of questions. There are eight billion people on the planet, how many know how to find food continuously without stores or restaurants? How many would have clean water for months if it didn't come through their pipes? 

You are right - with all the people in the world, concessions about knowledge come with the territory. I think my view on AI comes from a place where it's human nature to become lax when something is taken care of. People don't grow their own food when someone hands it to them. They don't worry about how an engine works when someone makes it so there is almost no maintenance required to keep it going. And, without trying to turn this into a political issue: that thought process falls squarely into social programs that take care of basic things that people used to have to take care of themselves.

AI doesn't pose that threat right now, but it will - and I think subconsciously, people can feel it. We're already too convenienced, too taken-care of. The ability to maintain ourselves slowly gives way to letting someone else do it for us - and all those systems are in place because many of those 8 billion people simply can't function on their own - either from lack of mental capacity or their location. I don't expect someone who lives in New York City to be able to farm, hunt and provide themselves drinking water. It's not possible in a metropolis. Should everyone move to a rural area? That is also not possible. It's a difficult situation that will result in a negative outcome overall, I believe. It'll take many years, but you can't stop progress - especially when that progress is needed to sustain a ballooning population.

But for AI in the arts? I don't find that necessary at all.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[justadude]

Always fun to see lazy political talking points in comic forum discussions.

If the argument is that concessions of knowledge lead to lazy humans, then we've been lazy from the beginning. We've had cities for 10,000 years where people didn't need to grow their own food, hunt, create clothing, etc. If we go to hunter-gatherer stages, it didn't exist then either because labor was divided by sex with women foraging/creating clothes/housing, while men hunted/screwed around. Just because the complexity has increased doesn't mean we are "lazier." It means we've become more and more specialized in a more complex social network. Humans are social animals. They've always been "taken care of" in some form or another.

Which is counter to this "human ideal" that is pretty recent and very American. The survivalist attitude that all things need to be done on your own not only has no historical evidence, but is one firmly rooted in a Puritanical mindset of going back to a "better time." (The same Puritans who were banished from England for their backwards conservative ideology and thus set out to North America "for freedom.")

The fearmongering of "ballooning populations" is also not true, with birth rates falling in accordance with the level of economic development. This is already being seen in China where the population is about to drop off. Globally, the population is expected to max within the next ~25 years and then decrease there on out. Stephen Pinker offers a basic analysis of this.

The reason for even replying is to show this basic "everything is going to hell" mentality (which is SO prevalent of a certain generation) is also false. People have been saying this since they could speak, looking at children playing with sticks and stones saying, "In my day, we only had bones." We're social creatures and should be judged by the societies we create, not by arbitrary metrics of American survivalist standards. AI is an additional complexity. It will surely create unnecessary workers who will then do something else. If anyone thinks artists will simply "become lazy" because AI can do their job for them, then they surely don't understand the neurosis it is being an artist.

Last thing, Peter Sloterdijk made the astute point that humanity comes from luxury. It's the luxury of time and materials that allow art to be created, a luxury only possible by a division of labor. We can look back at the greatest artists of human history and enjoy their work, or we can say how "they didn't know how to farm, hunt, fix a pull cart, and get their own water because they lived in cushy cities and were lazy."

Uh huh.

[VintageComics]

On 9/11/2023 at 4:09 PM, valiantman said:

I've given it more thought and I've decided that this topic is too "the sky is falling" for me.

There are hundreds of ways to prepare beef. Fast food hamburger is #1... no creativity.

What's that you're eating in that bowl? Rice? Noodles?  Wow, that's incredible variety.

Great analogy, because now, as we speak FAKE BEEF is being labelled as food when it isn't actually food. 

So the parallel is the same and the same rules apply - the sky may not fall now but it will certainly fall eventually. And THAT is what the discussion is about. 

The longer term effects and how we get there. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:30 AM, the blob said:

On 9/11/2023 at 9:58 PM, alexgross.com said:

as you probably know, midjourney and the other AI image making apps create entirely new images based on their visual training data which is everything on the internet. just put in my name or any other known artist in midjourney and give some prompts that include 'in the style of' and you'll get an array of derivative but not stolen images. so, its more than stock imagery that the AI are threatening. its working artists and illustrators, yes, some people are suing but it seems unlikely that some lawsuits can stop the direction of things. paying to use stock imagery or hiring an illustrator will probably become superfluous once the AI is a bit better and easier to use.

and once you eliminate the human element I think the industry is dead, folks stop reading and buying it, the few that are left doing that now (ok, i shouldn't say that, the number of people reading digital copies of some of this stuff might be huge)

The parallel seems to be the same in every profitable industry that is taken over by tech:

Promise of something greater offered to the public

Profit > integrity in the corporate boardroom so they devise ways to sell stuff cheaper at the sake of quality

Garbage masquerades as "something greater" and is sold for profit

General buying public realizes it was duped and rebels.

Rinse repeat.

On 9/13/2023 at 10:42 AM, Dr. Balls said:

On 9/11/2023 at 4:09 PM, valiantman said:

A.I. wasn't even needed. We did it to ourselves.

This is what I think as well. If the human race needs to develop a computer to do the thinking for us and do it faster, doesn't that say a lot about how we've lost the handle on managing ourselves as a species?

Correct. 

The REASON this keeps happening is because of the ignorance of long term ramifications of "tech advances" being placed on us...AND because people generally still believe "cheaper is better" always leading people to cut performance for cost rather than chase a higher quality product that costs just a little more.

People have been duped into thinking cheaper is better and because of this, it's the general combination of these two things and a manipulation of the general public's perceptions that lead to them - the big corporations - to being able to do this.

The automobile

The factory / assembly line

The atomic bomb

The internet

Social Media

Artificial Intelligence

In every case, it's the morality and  integrity (or lack thereof) of those releasing the product that determine how addictive if is and it's the marketing that "shows" everyone how effective it is but it is the INDUSTRY that hides how destructive it is.

For example, if we all knew the internet was going to be causing a worldwide phenomenon of self harm with the rise of algorithms in 2010-2011 across millions or even billions of kids would we have still allowed it?

Why did nobody know or say anything BEFORE it happened? Where were our overlords and gate keepers?

Nobody is really interested in being a "gate keeper" in an emerging, highly profitable industry. They'd get destroyed even if they did nothing wrong but asked the wrong questions (oh wait )

 

We've already seen the large art and movie houses speaking out of both sides of their mouths during disingenuous strike negotiations by going full steam ahead on AI even though they are pretending not to. 

Every industry is no different - the money is more important than the integrity in the corporate boardroom. 

And people chasing cheaper things care more about getting the thing than if the thing even works. 

These two are the root problems IMO. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by VintageComics

[MatterEaterLad]

Here we go... 

[alexgross.com]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:21 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

Here we go... 

this little snippet looks like mike allred and brian bolland had a baby who makes comics. 

but it is impressive nonetheless, and quite clear that it will be incredibly easy very shortly, if not already, to make a visually compelling comic with zero artistic ability. 

this does not mean that there will be no jobs left for great artists. but probably there will be less and less of them, like in illustration and other commercial art fields. pretty sure that at some point almost all hit songs will be either fully generated by AIs, or at least written by them. 

[Beastfeast]

On 9/15/2023 at 8:37 PM, VintageComics said:

Great analogy, because now, as we speak FAKE BEEF is being labelled as food when it isn't actually food. 

So the parallel is the same and the same rules apply - the sky may not fall now but it will certainly fall eventually. And THAT is what the discussion is about. 

The longer term effects and how we get there. 

I’m confused about the fake beef comment. What do you mean it isn’t food? Can you eat it? Does it have nutritional value? 
 

I wouldn’t ever live solely on Beyond burgers but it is 100% food in literally every definition of the word. 

[namisgr]

Ironically, this is a thread created to air beefs, be them against plant-based meat substitutes, amorphous fears of technology-based advances and robotization, or legitimate concerns over new, unvetted and unregulated ways to access and disseminate information over the internet.

It's also weird that these beefs are being made public using devices and services that are based on sophisticated and complex robotics-based miniaturization, construction, and assembly, along with use of ultra-high frequency communication signals not routinely accessed before outside of aviation, and codes written and evaluated by combined contributions of humans and specialized machines, all part of the very technological advances that are being painted negatively.

Edited October 3, 2023 by namisgr

[fantastic_four]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:45 PM, VintageComics said:

For example, if we all knew the internet was going to be causing a worldwide phenomenon of self harm with the rise of algorithms in 2010-2011 across millions or even billions of kids would we have still allowed it?

There is no "we" that encompasses all of humankind.  Without any technology humans are tribal, and every tribe competes with the other.  Without paper there would have been no centralized religion to move humans beyond tribes and into scattered kingdoms.  Without the printing press the modern nation-state would not be possible to move humans beyond smaller kingdoms.  And without the Internet we wouldn't even be able to hear your hypothetical question quoted above because there would be no way for you to communicate it to anyone aside from a small handful of the fellow moose-loving Canucks in your area, nor would we be able to keep going down the track of eventually uniting humanity at the global level in the way your question seems to assume is already possible.  Without mass communication the capacity for humanity to cooperate as a whole simply isn't possible.

As long as we're still fragmented as a species we can't make global decisions, and without that halting technology is impossible.  One country can try, or 100 countries can try, but technology will still proliferate anyway in other areas.  You can slow it down, but you can't stop it.  It's inevitable.  That's particularly true for a technology like AI that doesn't require scarce resources like fission or fusion does for nuclear weapons.  No matter what any government tries to do AI will still play itself out.

But to answer your hypothetical bolded above--no, we wouldn't have stopped it.  The benefits outweigh the costs.  As I've said to you a dozen times over the last decade or two every technology is two steps forward and one step back.  If you focus on the one step back then yes, any technology from fire-on-demand or the wheel onward looks like a terrible idea.  But humanity as a whole has always focused on both the cons AND the pros, and that's why it has always proliferated and continued to advance.  It's unstoppable.

Will we destroy ourselves with Prometheus's gift?  Maybe.  But by the time it's possible for one unhinged lunatic to kill us all we're also likely to be able to start colonizing the Milky Way, so even if we end up destroying Earth it's highly likely that won't be the end for the human species.  Maybe we'll kill ourselves, or maybe we'll end up swarming the universe like locusts.  We'll see.

Edited October 3, 2023 by fantastic_four

[valiantman]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:36 AM, namisgr said:

It's also weird that these beefs are being made public using devices and services that are based on sophisticated and complex robotics-based miniaturization, construction, and assembly, along with use of ultra-high frequency signals not routinely accessed before outside of aviation, and codes written and evaluated by combined contributions of humans and specialized machines, all part of the very technological advances that are being painted negatively.

... using devices in orbit that make it possible for groups like flat earth societies to thrive all around the globe. 

[fantastic_four]

One possible path for intelligent life is that its ability to spread throughout the universe exceeds its ability to destroy the entirety of its living space all the way up to the point of a weapon that can destroy the entire universe.  And once that kind of weapon is invented it gets used, and that resets everything and is the source of the Big Bang that started this universe.  Maybe we'll set off our own Big Bang in a few million years and start the whole thing over again.

Or maybe Family Guy was right and this started the Big Bang.  

[fantastic_four]

Coincidentally that Mattel brachiosaurus that's a Target exclusive popped up on BigBadToyStore after I posted pics of it yesterday.  BBTS often buys stuff off the market and re-sells it, so I assume they took advantage of the Target 25% off toys sale this week to buy a bunch of them.  I've seen them buying and selling/scalping toys for 5+ years, so I can only assume that's what happened here.  Sometimes I notice it myself, but far more often someone posts about them doing it on Reddit with dozens of people chiming in about how slimy they are for doing it.  

Note that I'm using "scalping" in an entirely non-pejorative way.  I have zero issue with doing that, but scalping is when you buy something desirable at market or below-market prices and instantly re-sell them.  BBTS has been doing that since at least 2019.  Whenever Amazon runs a sale on their Marvel Legends exclusives they usually pop up on BBTS that same week or the next week.  Two or three times I've seen desirable Walgreens exclusives pop up early on their web site before they even hit stores that then show up at BBTS marked up about $10 above MSRP.  It mostly seems like one of the execs there do what any market-savvy collector might do and just shop for bargains that can be re-sold for more.  There's no shame in it despite the large number of kids and lower-income young adults who constantly complain about it on Reddit and in other forums.

[valiantman]

On 10/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, fantastic_four said:

There's no shame in it despite the large number of kids and lower-income young adults who constantly complain about it on Reddit and in other forums.

To play devil's advocate, it's hard to believe "there's no shame in it" in anything that has to be described as "there's no shame in it"

Babies can't physically hold on to candy, so there's no shame in taking it from them.

Edited October 4, 2023 by valiantman

[fantastic_four]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:26 AM, valiantman said:

On 10/4/2023 at 9:06 AM, fantastic_four said:

There's no shame in it despite the large number of kids and lower-income young adults who constantly complain about it on Reddit and in other forums.

To play devil's advocate, it's hard to believe "there's no shame in it" in anything that has to be described as "there's no shame in it"

We all benefit from capitalism, but kids don't know that.  Even a third of adults don't realize that it's still better than every other option, at least for now.  If Roy posted in this thread he'd defend the anti-capitalist perspective.  That will change eventually once automation starts significantly decreasing the value of human labor, but I'll be pretty shocked if I live to see that.  My kids might.

[valiantman]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:32 AM, fantastic_four said:

On 10/4/2023 at 9:26 AM, valiantman said:

On 10/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, fantastic_four said:

There's no shame in it despite the large number of kids and lower-income young adults who constantly complain about it on Reddit and in other forums.

To play devil's advocate, it's hard to believe "there's no shame in it" in anything that has to be described as "there's no shame in it"

We all benefit from capitalism, but kids don't know that.  Even a third of adults don't realize that it's still better than every other option, at least for now.  If Roy posted in this thread he'd defend the anti-capitalist perspective.  That will change eventually once automation starts significantly decreasing the value of human labor, but I'll be pretty shocked if I live to see that.  My kids might.

Whining and jealousy are much older than capitalism and artificial intelligence. "I want it", "I want it now", "I want it for free", and "I don't like when others get what I want" are children's thoughts. It's sad when they're still stuck in adult heads.

[VintageComics]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:36 AM, namisgr said:

Ironically, this is a thread created to air beefs, be them against plant-based meat substitutes, amorphous fears of technology-based advances and robotization, or legitimate concerns over new, unvetted and unregulated ways to access and disseminate information over the internet.

It's also weird that these beefs are being made public using devices and services that are based on sophisticated and complex robotics-based miniaturization, construction, and assembly, along with use of ultra-high frequency communication signals not routinely accessed before outside of aviation, and codes written and evaluated by combined contributions of humans and specialized machines, all part of the very technological advances that are being painted negatively.

This thread was NOT created to air beefs and your attempts to paint it as such is just you attempting yet again to derail a perfectly reasonable and spirited discussion between people who have no idea what you're talking about.

You've been reading my posts for 20 years. NOTHING has changed about them except that 3 years ago, everyone started caring more about what I post. 

What is ironic is that you continue to question everyone else but nobody can question you, even though you've been more wrong than right over the 20 years I've known you.

You keep attempting to lock or move my threads and just quash the discussion rather than play fair and just have a reasonable, respectful discussion. 

Stop it. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:00 AM, justadude said:

The reason for even replying is to show this basic "everything is going to hell" mentality (which is SO prevalent of a certain generation) is also false.

I don't expect 95% of the population to understand my perspective, because it's much more focused on the issues I experience day-to-day compared to other people who might experience them once a week or once a month. If you had to deal with distribution, supply chain, employment, vendor relations, local government and oversight on a near-daily basis - you would see there are very significant problems across our society that didn't exist 5-6 years ago. And I'm not talking media fear-mongering. I'm talking about the basic functionality of our society's Capitalistic infrastructure as a whole.

I'd have to disagree - or perhaps meet in the middle. We're not going to collapse overnight, but we've shot past the point of no return years ago.