Need Some Help 4 4

[Lightning55]

And what if CGC'S "estimate" of value is way off? If there are no takers at that 20k estimate, and the price works its way down, finally sells for 5k, will CGC rebate your fees? I laughed as I wrote that.

If CGC opts to assign a value, the submitter should then have the right to sell it to CGC at that price. That forces them to put their money where their mouth is. If CGC balks at the price, maybe it's too high.

Maybe they would be a bit more conservative in their valuation, if they might own it at the estimated price. 

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:20 PM, Dr. Balls said:

The money grubbing in this hobby is enough to make you sell your books and take up grading.

FTFY

[Et-Es-Go]

Thanks for posting this part, and I have read through this a few times.  But just what exactly do they mean by "adjusting the tier"?  I sent the book in as unlimited value and followed their directions.  As far as I can tell my book was still viewed as within the tier of unlimited value, they just assigned a higher value to the book which resulted in higher fees.  If they have a standard operating procedure for this action, then it should be documented.  As far as I can tell there is not an accepted standard procedure for doing this, we just get what we get?

[Lightning55]

I guess as far as assessing what to base the 4% on, that can work both ways. They don't ask you what you based your DV on, and they don't tell you how they arrived at their valuation. Certainly they have the advantage, as they can see the final grade.

I believe they use GPA to determine the value, but you said there is nothing recent to compare.  I don't think there is a formal review process on values,  like there is on grades.

You could keep pressing them for the method of their assessment, or maybe get an independent appraisal if you think they are wildly off. Or challenge the added charge with your cc company, as it will certainly look wonky paying for the service, and then paying 10x more again. 

Maybe CGC thinks that you giving them 4% of this unexpectedly high value is the least you could do. 

[Readcomix]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:23 PM, Cog said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/submit/declared-value-policy/

If they do not change the declared value of the book for insurance purposes, then what the heck are they charging more for? If my copy of a book is nicer than your copy of the same book and I’m charged more based on that for the same service, that doesn’t suggest impartiality in grading.  If anything, it will lead many to infer the opposite about the relationship between amount paid and final grade received. 
Walk a Brooks Brothers suit and a department store suit into your dry cleaner for the same service. The price doesn’t change. 

[Readcomix]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:40 AM, Cog said:

The inconvenience caused by the submitter trying to slip a book past them in an inappropriate tier?

Huh? That's what slabbing costs are based on, age and how nice your book is.

I’m not arguing with you, just quoting the relevant section of their policy that you quoted. I get the alleged logic, just raising the rhetorical question as OP’s situation does bring it to the fore. We have all accepted it; you send a book in for grading, more valuable books cost more to get graded. I always thought it was said the cost difference was driven by higher costs to insure more valuable books while in their possession. Yet the policy says they don’t change the declared value of the book.

[Readcomix]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:02 AM, Cog said:

I assume not changing the declared value is a type of "penalty" that the submitter incurs. Might also be a legal thing. Or a return postage insurance thing. 

Didn’t mean to hijack the OP as I thought this was at least related. All possible reasons; just drawing forth the point that CGC transparently explaining why it costs more to grade, for example, an 8.5 AF15 vs a 3.5 AF15 would underscore the notion of impartial grading. I just think their reputation would benefit from a clear public explanation of why the same service costs more when handling a better example of the same widget.

Don’t get me wrong; CGC has built a great reputation over two decades (allowing for the fact that you can’t of course please everyone) but anything can erode without maintenance.

Great, frank conversation; thank you!

[october]

On 9/11/2023 at 10:23 PM, Cog said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/submit/declared-value-policy/

This company doesn't assign values, except when it assigns values every day. It takes effort to craft back to back sentences that contradictory. 

[Ryan.]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:12 AM, october said:

This company doesn't assign values, except when it assigns values every day. It takes effort to craft back to back sentences that contradictory. 

No kidding.

[Math Teacher]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:40 AM, Cog said:

The inconvenience caused by the submitter trying to slip a book past them in an inappropriate tier?

This doesn't make any sense. The OP submitted the book using the Unlimited tier.

[thehumantorch]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:47 AM, Readcomix said:

I’m not arguing with you, just quoting the relevant section of their policy that you quoted. I get the alleged logic, just raising the rhetorical question as OP’s situation does bring it to the fore. We have all accepted it; you send a book in for grading, more valuable books cost more to get graded. I always thought it was said the cost difference was driven by higher costs to insure more valuable books while in their possession. Yet the policy says they don’t change the declared value of the book.

Cost of grading is based on what the customer will pay.  You won't have many customers if you charge $2000 to grade a book worth $200.

[Et-Es-Go]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:19 AM, thehumantorch said:

Cost of grading is based on what the customer will pay.  You won't have many customers if you charge $2000 to grade a book worth $200.

It is an interesting conundrum.  The majority of collectors feel more secure about buying a slabbed and graded book.  Personally, If I buy a book, I want to turn the pages and see what is between the covers as well.  The time it takes to grade a $500K book vs a $5K book is arguably the same, so the grading fees should be set based on that task, not using value as a starting point.  

 

Now I can understand the insurance side of this whole thing where CGC needs to cover the chance of having to replace said book and how that book is valued for insurance purposes for CGC.  So if that is what it is, call it what it is.  By setting a FMV ahead of grading is really based on the insurable value of the book that CGC should cover.  For CGC that cost has to be based on a sliding monetary scale based on the insurable value.  Why not just call it what it is, Collectables Insurance Coverage while in the Custody of CGC.  Now that I can understand.....

[thehumantorch]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:50 AM, Et-Es-Go said:

It is an interesting conundrum.  The majority of collectors feel more secure about buying a slabbed and graded book.  Personally, If I buy a book, I want to turn the pages and see what is between the covers as well.  The time it takes to grade a $500K book vs a $5K book is arguably the same, so the grading fees should be set based on that task, not using value as a starting point.  

 

Now I can understand the insurance side of this whole thing where CGC needs to cover the chance of having to replace said book and how that book is valued for insurance purposes for CGC.  So if that is what it is, call it what it is.  By setting a FMV ahead of grading is really based on the insurable value of the book that CGC should cover.  For CGC that cost has to be based on a sliding monetary scale based on the insurable value.  Why not just call it what it is, Collectables Insurance Coverage while in the Custody of CGC.  Now that I can understand.....

I have to believe the insurance cost is negligible.  CGC charges more for valuable books because the market will pay it.  

[Et-Es-Go]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:58 AM, thehumantorch said:

I have to believe the insurance cost is negligible.  CGC charges more for valuable books because the market will pay it.  

OK, that said.  Then their should be standard tiers of what the value of the book is vs to apply grading fees and the grade of the book.  If they created criteria that stated something like this (and I am making these numbers up:

Value $2K to $5K          Grading Fee $250

Value $5K to $15K        Grading Fee $500

Value $15K to $30K      Grading Fee $750

 

If for example they believe a book should be assigned to a higher category they should provide their assessment, and then you would jump to that new level of value vs grading fees.  This at least would be a compromise in their grading/fee structure to be more transparent about how they are making their assessment, and the result of that assessment drops you into a different tier.  There are a lot of ways you could structure the fee schedule, and this is only one iteration.  I would need to know more about how their biz works to make a more intelligent or applicable opinion on how their fees are adjusted. 

[Lightning55]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:57 AM, Cog said:

I'm not sure what the initial $72 charge was, as the  Unlimited tier is $150 minimum. You subbed as Unlimited you said? 🤔 

You are getting that $72 from the email, which was written by someone math-challenged (2000-72=11,928). They were taking $1800 × 4% =$72, which is irrelevant to the $150 minimum. 

In an earlier post, the OP stated he paid $285. I can't figure that out, as I get closer to $200 for Unlimited with $1800 valuation ($150 min. plus shipping, sub fee, etc.)

[Lightning55]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:02 AM, Cog said:

I assume not changing the declared value is a type of "penalty" that the submitter incurs. Might also be a legal thing. Or a return postage insurance thing. 

Not likely for return postage, as a submitter a few months back had this same problem. He didn't mind paying the upcharge, but wanted the return shipment insured to the new value.

CGC said no, it had to use the original DV. So even after the fact that they collected the full grading fee, they didn't want to properly insure it. Nice free money if you can get it. And they can.

[Lightning55]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:58 PM, thehumantorch said:

I have to believe the insurance cost is negligible.  CGC charges more for valuable books because the market will pay it.  

CGC knows that you are profiting from their certification, and they want a piece. It's that simple. 

In the fine arts world, if you wanted to get a painting that's potentially worth in the neighborhood of $1 Million authenticated and appraised, it will be a very expensive appraisal. Only a handful of people in the world have the expertise to do that, so they can charge a hefty fee.  Without their blessing, the painting is worth only a fraction.  They know that their seal of approval is worth a small fortune, and charge accordingly. 

To grade a 9.8 Ultimate Fallout 4 worth $2k, you don't need that expert art appraiser, but CGC charges $150. Other Moderns, same grade, $25.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Lightning55

[Lightning55]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:17 PM, Cog said:

That's one thing that confused me when I asked if he realized that Unlimited was $150 minimum. Why is his initial charge $72 if he submitted it  as Unlimited?

Plus, the quite above was a general statement not aimed at anyone.

The $72 is from the email, and likely incorrect. See post above.

[Et-Es-Go]

This thread really prompted some interesting discussions.  I do not know what OP means, so someone will need to enlighten me on that.  Let me see if I can set the record straight here on what was submitted and what the results were.

Two books were submitted.  The first one I put a FMV of $30K on it and submitted as unlimited value.  Paid the 4% fee up front, and there is a $5 charge for imaging, a $5 charge for handling, then $125 for overnight shipping, so at $135.  So the total for that book was $1,335.00.  All went fine with that book, and I have it back.

The second book submitted was also submitted as unlimited value.  That book does not sell very often as it does not have a very big census.  I did not find any applicable current sales so I defaulted to the price guide (which is what CGC says to do) and estimated the grade at 7.0 to 8.0 which had a guide price of about $1800, thus I used that.  $150 is the minimum for unlimited value, then add the same imaging, handling, and shipping fees for another $135, so I paid up front fees of $285.  This book they determined should be worth $20,000, not $1800.  So I was asked to pay an additional $650 in grading fees, the difference.  

In the first case it all went according to -script and no issues.  For the second case the FMV was re-assessed based on the opinion that CGC feels the book is worth $20K compared to my submission FMV of $1800.  I think it is fine that they determine a different value for a book that has been submitted; however, they need to either have a procedure spelled out on how they get to that value and/or they need to structure their unlimited value tiers to better meet the expectations of the customer and not surprise them with a 10x change upward or more in valuation.

[Lightning55]

With the overnight shipping, and the imaging, the math adds up.  Thanks for clearing that up.  OP means Original Poster.