Opinions/Insights/Advice On When You Get a Commission and Your Reaction Is 'Meh'. 2 2

[Rick2you2]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, paqart said:

I don't understand commissions at all. I recently did a story for an anthology published by Graham Nolan. At one point, he asked all the artists if we'd be doing commissions. I couldn't imagine why, so I said no. A few others, including Graham, did them. 

There a few reasons I'm not interested in making them as an artist, nor in buying them as a collector.

As an artist:

1. I don't like working with non-professional clients. Some might be wonderful to deal with, but I've run into so many that are unreasonable that I won't take the risk.
2. Outside of the natural context for comic book art, the "story" behind a commission tends to be uninteresting. An exception to this are cover recreations.
3. If it comes out well, hardly anyone will see it. If not, the collector will be annoyed with himself or me, or both.

As a collector:

1. They lose value immediately
2. They weren't published, so no one will have seen the image
3. Outside a comic book, the art almost always lacks vitality
4. The tendency is to pose a character either without an environment, or in an environment that doesn't make sense.

First, you can get images by artists who haven't done a character before. Second, you get to play. Here is a female version of a Phantom Stranger I had done at a con by Colleen Doran:

Things like this aren't intended, at least in my case, to make money. 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rick2you2

[RBerman]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:22 PM, Buzzetta said:

Other sketches I have had done are mostly from Larry Hama.  As a GI Joe aficionado, many GI Joe collectors have asked Hama to sketch characters, not so much because of Larry Hama, "the artist, but because Larry Hama is the Godfather of GI Joe and basically the creator of GI Joe: A Real American Hero.  As he wrote, and sometimes drew, and actually created the backstory for the many of the toys themselves, fans of the toy line AND the comics have sought out Hama's sketch work.  I own several.  Hama used to charge $25-$40 a sketch at NYCC up until a few years ago.   Now he is asking for much more and does not really travel as much.  His sketches of Snake Eyes are currently going for a couple of hundred.  

 

That's good to hear! I met him last year and had him do an "artist's choice" sketch. He gave me Snake Eyes.

[Hockeyflow33]

It's tough now because prices are so insane but stick to an amount of money that you are okay losing if you don't like the final product. All these people paying $500, $1,000 or more for commissions is crazy now because so often they come out blah and you're going to be losing a lot of money if the character isn't Batman 

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/22/2023 at 4:58 PM, paqart said:

I don't understand commissions at all. I recently did a story for an anthology published by Graham Nolan. At one point, he asked all the artists if we'd be doing commissions. I couldn't imagine why, so I said no. A few others, including Graham, did them. 

There a few reasons I'm not interested in making them as an artist, nor in buying them as a collector.

As an artist:

1. I don't like working with non-professional clients. Some might be wonderful to deal with, but I've run into so many that are unreasonable that I won't take the risk.
2. Outside of the natural context for comic book art, the "story" behind a commission tends to be uninteresting. An exception to this are cover recreations.
3. If it comes out well, hardly anyone will see it. If not, the collector will be annoyed with himself or me, or both.

As a collector:

1. They lose value immediately
2. They weren't published, so no one will have seen the image
3. Outside a comic book, the art almost always lacks vitality
4. The tendency is to pose a character either without an environment, or in an environment that doesn't make sense.

I can’t speak for others, but for me - every point really makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing that.

[Bridom]

Spending real money ($300+) on a commission from most artists is pretty nuts in my opinion. I've got a couple themed sets of things and I don't know that I'd get my money back overall if I tried to tell them, but I like them and a few might go for some bucks. The risk of dealing with newish professionals is definitely there - I have a few that burned me on time/effort and I'll never buy a book they work on because of the bad feeling - but largely it was either an artist I'd followed on social media (so I knew they weren't a total maniac) or through an art dealer.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:18 AM, Bridom said:

Spending real money ($300+) on a commission from most artists is pretty nuts in my opinion.

 

I’ve spent as much as $800 on a commission before.  I average about $250 to $400 on every commission I’ve ever gotten and I know full well that I will not get the same money back that I put into it.  But I don’t plan on selling any of my commissions either so it doesn’t really matter to me.  It’s akin to vintage car restoration (of which I also partake in).  You are never (or very rarely) going to get back what you put into it.  However, you will be getting a very unique item that you can cherish in your collection.  That’s my stance on why I am comfortable getting commissions.  I also enjoy being able to get artists I grew  up with to draw characters they have never done before and interactions (non-sexual) that they possibly haven’t imagined previously.  It’s a nice surprise to see what they come up with.  I’ll admit that the commissions aren’t always gold but I have enjoyed enough of them to keep getting them.

[christosgage]

I view getting a commission kind of the way I do gambling at a casino: I'm paying for a fun experience, in this case interacting with an artist whose work I admire and having them create a piece just for me. If I come out ahead (with a piece I like), that's gravy. And I don't lay out more than I'm comfortable not getting back. Mostly I've gotten things on the order of con sketches, so it's not often I've ended up with a piece I don't enjoy looking at, but when I have, yeah, I've sold, traded or donated it, without worrying about what I get for it. My favorite of those options is donating, or selling with the proceeds going to Hero Initiative or another worthy charity.

[redrighthand]

This doesn't address the quality risk of commissioning, but...my .001364 cents (adjusted for inflation).

The one thing I never see in "getting out what I put into a commission" is the monetary value of possession and enjoyment. This has to be acknowledged when you go in on one. I spent 600 on one by a noted artist and his trademark creation. I know I'm not likely to get the full 600 out of it anytime soon (not that I intend to). But it's been on my wall for a year and a half and I know that I've paid for be able to do that and looking at it. If I sold it tomorrow for 400, I'd have to consider if I got 200 bucks of fun by having it (and as far as I'm concerned, I've gotten the full 600 from it).

 

If the time a piece is with you isn't worth anything, then it's not art. It's just a commodity. Unless it's just a "meh" piece, in which case...bad luck or bad research.

Part of why I just don't get collectors who just file their stuff away, but that's another thing.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/27/2023 at 7:15 PM, christosgage said:

I view getting a commission kind of the way I do gambling at a casino: I'm paying for a fun experience, in this case interacting with an artist whose work I admire and having them create a piece just for me. If I come out ahead (with a piece I like), that's gravy. And I don't lay out more than I'm comfortable not getting back. Mostly I've gotten things on the order of con sketches, so it's not often I've ended up with a piece I don't enjoy looking at, but when I have, yeah, I've sold, traded or donated it, without worrying about what I get for it. My favorite of those options is donating, or selling with the proceeds going to Hero Initiative or another worthy charity.

This is where I'm at currently. I've gambled on a few pieces, and they didn't turn out like I'd hoped - but again, not the fault of the artist. I also don't get too heavy-handed with the direction - I want the artist to work creatively under the fewest constraints possible, but looking back, that may have not been the right choice.

I've decided that it's probably best for me to stick with finding art that I like in it's current form - rather than hoping the artist randomly hits what I'm looking for. I've actually picked up several commissions from others that I like - and I enjoy them quite a bit, but I think the way my brain works - its best to look at completed works and make a move on them, rather than poke-and-hope I get something that knocks my socks off. Ive got one last commission I'm waiting on and that will probably be it for me.

[christosgage]

On 10/28/2023 at 12:31 PM, Dr. Balls said:

This is where I'm at currently. I've gambled on a few pieces, and they didn't turn out like I'd hoped - but again, not the fault of the artist. I also don't get too heavy-handed with the direction - I want the artist to work creatively under the fewest constraints possible, but looking back, that may have not been the right choice.

I've decided that it's probably best for me to stick with finding art that I like in it's current form - rather than hoping the artist randomly hits what I'm looking for. I've actually picked up several commissions from others that I like - and I enjoy them quite a bit, but I think the way my brain works - its best to look at completed works and make a move on them, rather than poke-and-hope I get something that knocks my socks off. Ive got one last commission I'm waiting on and that will probably be it for me.

I have to say, the very few times I've tried to be very specific about what I want it didn't turn out great for me, and I think it's because as you suggested, putting too many constraints on the artist is counter-productive. Technically you get what you asked for - this character in that setting doing X - but it's lacking something, and I think it's because the artist feels boxed in. An exception would be once or twice when I've suggested "what would you think of something like this" and the artist really responds to the idea...you can tell it's something they're excited about. Even then it's less about stage managing them and more that they are as excited about the idea as I am, so the piece has that kind of "magic". (And TBH I'm speaking here as much about writing comics as commissions...you can always spot a rookie when you see someone whose script is like Alan Moore's, with everything in the panel described in great detail, what angle to use, etc etc. Most artists will either ignore that or worse, they'll try to give it to you and it will suck.)

Your second point is also a great one. As an example, Ramona Fradon's commission list is pretty long, but every now and again her rep does online art dumps, and there's always some spectacular stuff in there, probably because she was drawing something that inspired her. (Never mind how amazing it is that she's 97!) I've picked up some terrific pieces, and I know exactly what I'm getting. Here's an example from just last year.

[AndyFish]

I'm probably re-iterating what a lot of you are saying with this, and Christos especially-- as an artist who is selective about commissions I'll do-- the best ones are always what do you feel like drawing?    At Salt Lake City last year or the year before I had a guy who came up to me with a pile of reference, all of it female manga type art-- and he throws a pile of cash down and gives me incredibly detailed instructions as to what he wants.  I hand him back his money and tell him I'm going to pass-- he looks at me like I have five heads.  I tell him I'm not going to be happy drawing this and you're not going to be happy with the results.   Important to note he chose me after looking through my portfolio of Dark Knights and Zombies/Vampires-- how did he think I fit into his teen girl cleavage theme?

On the flip side, the few times I will order a commission I exclusively go with "do what you feel like drawing today" and I've always been happy with it.  My wife often commissions with a specific character in mind and I'd say she's happy about 50% of the time.

So yes, there is a gamble, but you're paying for a commission and for many of us even if you're an editor of a major company if you over art direct there's a good chance we aren't going to take the gig.

The other thing I'm adamant on is communication-- I don't ghost anyone and I don't make up phantom relatives that have died.   I keep you in the loop, because that's how I want to be treated.  I have a well known artist who still owes me a commission and we're going on seven years now.

[Rick2you2]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:40 AM, AndyFish said:

I'm probably re-iterating what a lot of you are saying with this, and Christos especially-- as an artist who is selective about commissions I'll do-- the best ones are always what do you feel like drawing?    At Salt Lake City last year or the year before I had a guy who came up to me with a pile of reference, all of it female manga type art-- and he throws a pile of cash down and gives me incredibly detailed instructions as to what he wants.  I hand him back his money and tell him I'm going to pass-- he looks at me like I have five heads.  I tell him I'm not going to be happy drawing this and you're not going to be happy with the results.   Important to note he chose me after looking through my portfolio of Dark Knights and Zombies/Vampires-- how did he think I fit into his teen girl cleavage theme?

On the flip side, the few times I will order a commission I exclusively go with "do what you feel like drawing today" and I've always been happy with it.  My wife often commissions with a specific character in mind and I'd say she's happy about 50% of the time.

So yes, there is a gamble, but you're paying for a commission and for many of us even if you're an editor of a major company if you over art direct there's a good chance we aren't going to take the gig.

The other thing I'm adamant on is communication-- I don't ghost anyone and I don't make up phantom relatives that have died.   I keep you in the loop, because that's how I want to be treated.  I have a well known artist who still owes me a commission and we're going on seven years now.

Maybe he wanted something like Zombie Tramp?
I have heard more than a few artists complain about excess direction, but the question the  potential customer should ask is how much is too much? Presumably, positioning arms and legs is a no-no. Does it otherwise vary by artist? 

[Michael Browning]

I have a vision when I ask for a commission. I know what I want and I'm very good at describing that scene. As an editor, I was a newspaper designer for the front page and laid out everything in the paper except sports, and I've always had a God-given talent to know what I want and how I want it to look on a page. I am also a pretty good photographer and know how to frame photos to tell a story. Again, another God-given talent for which I'm very thankful and that has benefited me greatly in my careers.

I had one artist question my vision once and he went with what he wanted to draw and it was terrible. He told me to trust him and that I was going to love it. I did not.

Another artist said he didn't see how my vision would work, so he went with what he wanted to draw and it, too, was pretty bad.

Ernie Chan liked when I would commission him, because I always had a specific vision for what I wanted and he liked working with me on them. He a commission while we chatted on the phone -- with the first five minutes being the time I described the commission.

One of the best inkers to ever work in the business told me to trust him on what he was going to draw for me. He was, after all, a longtime penciler and inker and he had designed and drawn many covers. It was one of the absolute worst commissions I ever paid for and he didn't even ink it. He said he just wasn't excited about drawing the character (Jonah Hex) and, if I really wanted it inked, just to mail it to him later and he would. I declined.

I don't think it's wrong for a person spending their cash on a piece to ask for what they want. It's my hard-earned money and, if the artist doesn't want to draw what I want, then I just find another artist who will.

And, don't even get me started on the "you have to pay in advance, but I have to finish my paying work, first..." 

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:32 AM, Michael Browning said:

And, don't even get me started on the "you have to pay in advance, but I have to finish my paying work, first..." 

I am waiting on one of those currently - and it’s an inking commission over existing pencils. Paid in full back in April, was told he’s working on paying work first . I’m going to give it a year, and we’ll see what happens.

[Michael Browning]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:48 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I am waiting on one of those currently - and it’s an inking commission over existing pencils. Paid in full back in April, was told he’s working on paying work first . I’m going to give it a year, and we’ll see what happens.

My money is worth the same as what an artist is making from his “paying work,” despite how some artists have tried to make it seem worth less.

[alxjhnsn]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:08 PM, Michael Browning said:

My money is worth the same as what an artist is making from his “paying work,” despite how some artists have tried to make it seem worth less.

Michael, I doubt it's a monetary difference. I suspect it is a matter of who will give them the most repeat business. A publisher will win that battle against a commissioner who is likely to buy only once. So, #pages * page rate > 1 commission.

 

[Michael Browning]

On 11/6/2023 at 6:59 PM, alxjhnsn said:

Michael, I doubt it's a monetary difference. I suspect it is a matter of who will give them the most repeat business. A publisher will win that battle against a commissioner who is likely to buy only once. So, #pages * page rate > 1 commission.

 

I totally get that, but, the artists shouldn't accept or solicit commissions if they don't have the time to do them. It would be like me working my day job, then being offered/getting a second job only to not show up for my second job's shifts for a month or two and not calling in because of my "paying work" (the day job).

[alxjhnsn]

I agree with they shouldn't offer if they can't do it.

[fmaz]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:20 PM, Dr. Balls said:

This is where I fall: almost all of my art is on my walls so I can appreciate it daily. Good advice from everyone here, and great outlooks - thanks to everyone for their insights so far.

I’m with you, and I guess a bit more extreme. 😂 Every single piece of art I own is on my walls. It’s why I buy them, so I can enjoy them. It’s actually why I’m ok selling books and using the proceeds for art because I feel like the books were sitting in a box and the art’s on the wall. 
Because of that, and because of all the horror stories I’ve heard people had tracking down artists for commissions I simply don’t see the value of them (for me) from a cost/benefit standpoint. Don’t get me wrong I think there are some incredible commissions out there and I own some - because I bought completed pieces after the fact. That seems like such a more practical method. 
You can’t be dissatisfied if you’re buying a finished piece. 
I did commission one piece - with Alan Kupperberg in what turned out to be the final months of his life, sadly. He was a very nice guy. The experience was wonderful and I cherish the piece and the memory of getting to know him a bit. But from everything I’ve read since I feel like I got a bit of beginner’s luck on that one. 
BTW - I can 100% why people who have very specific collections go the commission route - it’s the only way to get exactly what they want/need. Like I said, the above is completely my personal preference … no judgement on commissions in general. Just what works for me. 

[alxjhnsn]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:20 PM, Dr. Balls said:

almost all of my art is on my walls so I can appreciate it daily. 

I should have mentioned this on my first post. I my best pieces framed and hanging, but I also have a book stand upon which I place a portfolio. Each day, I turn the page to see new art. It works for me. Here are some pictures of the book stand in use:

 

Here's the framed and hung art.

Jeremy Bastian Cursed Pirate Girl on the far left. Art Baltazar's Action Cat. David Wright's Carol Day - consecutive strips from my favorite story, Problem Child. Percy Crosby's Skippy cut off the top. Curt Swan's Superbly, Mon-El and Shadow Lass. Boring/Shuster Superman strip. Frank Brunner's Howard the Duck vs. Donald Duck. Kaluza's Shadow and Margo.

Sheldon Mayer's Santa and Rudolph (front and back covers tell a story), Colored print of a LSH commission by Yale Stewart. LSH painting by Agnes Garbowska

Frank Brunner's Dr. Strange and friends. Tolkien's Middle Earth map recreated and scaled larger by me. Al Plastino's Adventure 247 LSH splash re-created. Sekowsky/Sachs JLA 29 (my first comic!) page. Gene Colan DD & BW commission.

David Petersen's Mouse Guard (Kenzie). Sheldon Mayer's birthday card for his mom. Swan Superman. Patrick McDonnell Earl and Mooch. Sheldon Mayer's Sugar and Spike (his sample Sunday when he tried to sell it as a newspaper strip). Carey Bat Lash. Stan Lynde's Rick O'Shay at Christmas.

Edited November 7, 2023 by alxjhnsn