Heritage Nov 16-19 Signature Auction 5 5

[KirbyCollector]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:40 AM, steve9999 said:

I would like to think that a good portion of the work acquired is not primarily for "the return." 

Clinically, that is true

“Individuals with hoarding disorder exhibit hyper-sentimentality, in which possessions are seen as part of the self, echoing the self-identity motive in psychological ownership, and the use of possessions as safety signals, echoing the motive to have a place/find personal security in psychological ownership,” Dr Chu explained. 

[cstojano]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:58 AM, Rick2you2 said:

If you are investing. Many people here, like Cstojano, don’t.

Yes I really never saw my purchases as "investing" but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish the world/market rewarded my "taste" numerically, even if I never sold a thing. 

[JC25427N]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:45 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Clinically, that is true

“Individuals with hoarding disorder exhibit hyper-sentimentality, in which possessions are seen as part of the self, echoing the self-identity motive in psychological ownership, and the use of possessions as safety signals, echoing the motive to have a place/find personal security in psychological ownership,” Dr Chu explained. 

Sorry, are you saying that if someone is not collecting primarily for "the return" they most likely have a mental disorder?

[cstojano]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:11 AM, JC25427N said:

Sorry, are you saying that if someone is not collecting primarily for "the return" they most likely have a mental disorder?

I didn't read it that way BUT as someone not collecting for return I admit I do have a mental disorder.

But then go to CAF and see some of these people's galleries where they dozens of unique artists represented, not even counting the number of individual pieces. Its insane. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cstojano

[Michael Browning]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:40 AM, steve9999 said:

Not sure one has anything to do with the other....Original art is not being "graded" by the CGC, it's just one of the few places to discuss this hobby.
I would like to think that a good portion of the work acquired is not primarily for "the return." 

The CGC company and its business is all about grading your collectibles in order for you to get a higher return on investment. Plain and simple. No doubt about it. It’s why they charge higher for key books because that’s what CGC is all about - a better return on investment and you pay for that. They offer pressing and cleaning services. That’s exactly for a return on investment. They do slab artwork. This is an art chat board on the CGC site, so, yes, this entire chat board is about returns.

[JC25427N]

  

On 11/26/2023 at 1:51 PM, Michael Browning said:

 this entire chat board is about returns.

I hard disagree, the way I see it is that since CGC (was) primarily a service for Comic Books, the CGC forum naturally attracted people with an interest in comics. If you go outside of this section of the boards, there is a vast plurality of users here who post in Comics General and other sections of the board who have never used CGC's services or have not used them in a very long time and just talk about comics. That's not to say that similar investment discussions don't pop up all across the board (not to the visible degree here though where it's basically every other post due to our smaller size), but I don't see it as what the board is entirely about as you put it, I think that's a very narrow-minded point of view to have. 

Also CGC does not slab original artwork, the best they do is slab sketches/commissions of certain sizes that qualify for a Signature Series Submission (they've witnessed it being drawn, or it's submitted by the artist themselves or their authorized rep). 

Edited November 26, 2023 by JC25427N

[JC25427N]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, namisgr said:

What happened?

• Distributors of dystopia
• Purveyors of paranoia
• Blowhards of baloney
• Antipodes of self awareness
• Nellies of narcissism
• Palaverous posting
• Miscreants of misinformation
• Flyers of fantasy
• Envies of expertise
• Pushers of pretense
• Nabobs of negativity
• Cynics of scholarship
• Slanderers of civics
• Avatars of avarice and anger
• etcetera, etcetera, etcetera

For posters who view the world and surround themselves with people in their daily lives filled with optimism, selflessness, positivity, commitment, sensitivity, community, fairness, earned expertise, rich experience, deep knowledge, joviality, and admiration, this place has become too often an unenjoyable and ugly turnoff.  So many have either stopped posting entirely or bunkered themselves into small and highly focused pockets they've found still bring enjoyable social interaction.

Specific to comics, whereas the boards were once predominated by collectors and hobbyists sharing enthusiasm and love for the comic book medium, they have evolved to predomination by investors, flippers, and the like focused on the commercial aspects of the hobby more so than the entertainment and creative art.  There's nothing wrong with that evolution, which flowed naturally from the  huge increase in comic book values and appreciation by the culture at large for the characters and their stories since the boards were first started.  It just doesn't support a set of discussion topics that some of the longstanding hobbyists and collectors find especially interesting.

I think this post from a discussion going on in Comics General fits nicely here right now

[KirbyCollector]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:11 PM, JC25427N said:

Sorry, are you saying that if someone is not collecting primarily for "the return" they most likely have a mental disorder?

If you have over 10,000 pages,  it might be slightly appropriate 😆 

[JC25427N]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:58 PM, KirbyCollector said:

If you have over 10,000 pages,  it might be slightly appropriate 😆 

Fair 

[cstojano]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:58 PM, KirbyCollector said:

If you have over 10,000 pages,  it might be slightly appropriate 😆 

Or 100 framed oil paintings. 10k pages can sort of reasonabily be bulk stored given the lack of stickiness and overal similar size and medium. People that collect non BW art, however, man. And don't get me started on animation cels.

[KirbyCollector]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:51 PM, JC25427N said:

Specific to comics, whereas the boards were once predominated by collectors and hobbyists sharing enthusiasm and love for the comic book medium, they have evolved to predomination by investors, flippers, and the like focused on the commercial aspects of the hobby more so than the entertainment and creative art.

The idea of "comics purists" on a board hosted by the very company whose sole intent was to convert comics from cheap, readable media to encased, untouchable commodities is rich

[JC25427N]

On 11/26/2023 at 3:28 PM, KirbyCollector said:

The idea of "comics purists" on a board hosted by the very company whose sole intent was to convert comics from cheap, readable media to encased, untouchable commodities is rich

That may be one way to view the end result, but I think the intent was to provide a 3rd party service that would guarantee the condition of certain collectibles. As I understand it from people I've talked to who were in the hobby at the time, before CGC came around in 2001 the selling of undisclosed restored comics was rampant, which was remedied by CGC providing 3rd party authentication to guarantee against such dealings. Which is also why to this day many purists buy slabbed comics just to have the guarantee of the condition/restoration status and immediately break it out of the slab once it's in hand. 

 

edit: Sorry, CGC opened in 2000. 2001 was when the Signature Series program was introduced which helped protect against forged signatures

Edited November 26, 2023 by JC25427N

[JC25427N]

Also I just flat out don't see the relevance of the hosting company to the board in this case, especially when outside of the customer services areas and the one sole moderator nowadays who rarely posts outside of moderating activities, CGC themselves have no presence on the boards and (to my knowledge) does not really dictate what can or cannot be discussed (outside of the obvious banned topics, and when Mike has to step in to break up arguments), I think the actual community that makes up the boards is more relevant when discussing what the board is mainly about.

If it turns out that Invision (the actual framework behind the boards) comes out as anti-comics for some reason, does this suddenly turn into an anti-comic forum? (Replace anti-comics with any other subject of your choosing)

Edited November 26, 2023 by JC25427N

[KirbyCollector]

On 11/26/2023 at 3:31 PM, JC25427N said:

before CGC came around in 2001 the selling of undisclosed restored comics was rampant

That is simply not true. When I got back from Europe in 1999 I bought thousands of Silver and Bronze Age comics from eBay over the next 4-5 years and rarely had an issue. Why? B/c most sellers used scanners, which did a great job of showing every tiny nick and wrinkle. If you took your time and knew grading, you did well -- no plastic case was required. AND you could read your find 

[tth2]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:58 PM, Rick2you2 said:

On 11/26/2023 at 12:35 PM, tth2 said:

This.

Going against the herd is great when investing in the stock market.  It's terrible for comics and OA.

If you are investing. Many people here, like Cstojano, don’t.

I think what he's saying is that he accepts it, but also kind of laments it.

I've never liked Spider-Man and never collected any of his books.  As a collector, I have no regrets.  Financially, I definitely had regrets, if for no other reason than I could've sold them for ridiculously inflated prices to finance other purchases.

[alxjhnsn]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:32 AM, Rick2you2 said:

I don’t take it personally; I do think that there is a difference which deserves to be observed.
Would Alex Johnson not be considered a smart guy because he likes fake Sugar and Spike recreations? What about people here who collect things like commissions, even though they have the least likelihood of appreciation? 

As I have said before, I spend the same pool of funds money that my friends prefer to spend on their golf games. I really don't care about resale value. I hang some and put the others in portfolios that display on custom book stand and flip through each day. It makes me smile.

Am I smart? Probably not from an investment POV. From a smiling POV though I am.

[Michael Browning]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:49 PM, JC25427N said:

  

Also CGC does not slab original artwork, the best they do is slab sketches/commissions of certain sizes that qualify for a Signature Series Submission (they've witnessed it being drawn, or it's submitted by the artist themselves or their authorized rep). 

Newsflash: That IS original art.

[JC25427N]

  

On 11/26/2023 at 10:55 PM, Michael Browning said:

Newsflash: That IS original art.

I feel like I added some details that make a big difference. The blanket statement "CGC slabs original art" I feel at best is misleading. Since they only slab very specific types of original art (they have specifically said they will not* at the moment slab published art) and only in very specific circumstances (must pass signature series submission rules). It's not like in comics where you can just send any old book in and they'll process it. So using the statement "CGC slabs original art" carries dramatically less weight in the argument you were trying to make with it when you take these specificities into account

But yes, the beginning of that statement you quoted from me is incorrect if you need a gotcha, but I'd hope you'd understand the point I was trying to make when you read the rest of it

*edit: before I get gotcha'd on another technicality, there are cases where commissions that have been slabbed by CGC (the one example I just remembered was an Invincible sketch cover commission) have been turned into published covers, so there is an edge case where you can say CGC slabs published art, but it's an edge case. And even then you can't really say they slabbed published art, really they slabbed unpublished art that later became published. But again, its a technicality 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by JC25427N

[delekkerste]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:35 PM, tth2 said:

Going against the herd is great when investing in the stock market.  

It actually hasn't been for a long time (for reasons that I won't bore people here with).

On 11/25/2023 at 5:56 PM, cstojano said:

Lots of investment talk about timing, all fair and fine. But lots of people lucked out (and continue to luck out) just by happening to be interested in the herd's interests - superheroes.

Me? I have no interest in superheroes. Never had. All the talk about dead money needs to give me a visit as proof "colllecting what you love" only works if it happens to be Star Wars, superheroes, and some other properties I am forgetting, for sure.

Yep, "buy what you like" only works on a financial basis if lots of other people like it as well. 

[Bronty]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:54 AM, delekkerste said:

It actually hasn't been for a long time (for reasons that I won't bore people here with).

Yep, "buy what you like" only works on a financial basis if lots of other people like it as well. 

hahah that's pretty good.    There's some truth in that.     I'd like Mile High Timely and Actions.