Happened upon a rare book that is graded 1 1

[Antillia Island]

I just happen on a CGC graded book that I bought for 20 bucks. I took a chance and come to find out there is only 2 in the census, its equal is worth thousand of dollars. Nothing in my mind makes since, the case looks correct, it's older case (2014).  The census numbers and description match. But I don't trust I'm this lucky, is there other methods of checking if it's truly correct or is it some fake. It is at 9.8 and don't want to re-case but would like get a double check.  

[DougC]

@Antillia Island Pictures? what comic? was it stolen?

At least give us something to go off of... if you want help.

Edit: also comics are much different than cards, low population on the census doesn't generally equate to worth as a selling point.

Edited October 14, 2023 by DougC

[Antillia Island]

Zindan #0 9.8ss (signed by Sabine Rich, Sajad Shah, and Adelso Corona) I was doing a search for Sabine Rich work and it popped up. No clue what it was but figured a 9.8 with 3 signatures must be worth more then $15 so I bid $20 and won for $16. I did the research after I confirmed it was in hand, it only has (2) 9.8 in census and the twin is part of the whole set listed for $70k (they might be dreaming). But I figure the 9.8 with 3 signatures is at least $200 and its rarity should push it closer to $2k, but way over $16, so I'm really suspicious. Its CGC number is 1273601001.

[KCOComics]

It's not the greatest picture,  but I don't see any red flags. Looks legit to me. 

It looks like a 9.6 with all three signatures sold for $37 5 years ago.  I agree,  you probably got a good deal, but I'm not sure if it would be $2k or even $200.  That said, I'm not familiar with this title so can't add much more than that. 

Let's hope the other guy sells his for $70k!! 

 

[DougC]

@Antillia Island

There are an additional two 9.8 signature series books as well under "roaring sun studios" (same book); the 9.6SS referenced above is listed under that publisher as well. This book was something of a self published passion project and their website hasn't been updated since 2019 (Zindan: The Last Ansaars).

You picked this up for $16.27 on ebay, was it a good deal? sure, if I saw it I would have thrown $20 at it, but I love Adelso Corona's art and have commissioned him for work in the past. Is this worth the amount you believe it is... probably not. Let go over some of your above questions and comments:

1. Is this a real CGC encapsulated book?

• Yes, there is nothing provided in your picture or the ebay picture that would show cause for concern, let alone someone choosing to counterfeit this particular book.

2. The book/encapsulated book is rare.

• Rare as in probably only a few thousand were produced (yes), rare as in only six were bothered to be sent to CGC to be encapsulated (sure). Rare as in it is valuable (no). Rarity is difficult to judge and goes hand-in-hand with:

3. The book is valuable!

• For anything to have value someone has to want it, there needs to be a demand. If the item is in demand but not many are able to be sold that creates "rarity". I am not going to say this book isn't valuable but it isn't as valuable as you believe it to be. The Zindan property is unknown at this point so there is no demand to create the rarity needed for value, which is why you got it for $16 without much of a fight.

The ebay auction was very poorly formatted, only stating it had two sigs and not three, and didn't mention any of the signers. Given the popularity of Sabine I would assume this book has value to those that collect her work (same with Corona & Saad). I wouldn't be surprised if this was in a dealers box during a convention where one of the three were appearing with a $60 price tag and a pink highlighted "deal of the show" sticker. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by DougC

[Antillia Island]

Thank you DougC. for the clear response and research. 

Yes, I questioned why would someone try and fake an odd book like this. I'm very happy with it since it has a nice collection of artists signatures on a unique project. I'm really new in collecting CGC comics and graded stuff (like 2 months). I come from crypto / NFT world so this unique serial number thing caught my attention. (digital and physical) 

But cool cool, I will go off your judgment and get excited it's not a fake. Its valuable to me and that is all that matters.  I will be holding it for a long while, diamond hands.   

[DougC]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:29 AM, Antillia Island said:

Thank you DougC. for the clear response and research. 

Yes, I questioned why would someone try and fake an odd book like this. I'm very happy with it since it has a nice collection of artists signatures on a unique project. I'm really new in collecting CGC comics and graded stuff (like 2 months). I come from crypto / NFT world so this unique serial number thing caught my attention. (digital and physical) 

But cool cool, I will go off your judgment and get excited it's not a fake. Its valuable to me and that is all that matters.  I will be holding it for a long while, diamond hands.   

As a point of reference the last numbers on the serial # do not equal a valid numeric symbol of number of books available. It only equates to the number of books in that specific submission. I.E. if I submit 12 books the last three numbers of that submission will be 001 - 012, If I submit a single book it will always be 001. This is completely different than an NFT that was minted to 100 and they more valuable ones are going to be the lowest numbers.

Also I would recommend the website for the book you purchased; it is a great story of a minority owned and published project out of New York that saw engagement across 5+ NYCC's.

[Antillia Island]

Thank you, 

I made a folder for this book with the website and information. It does look like a great project/story, I hope it resurfaces. Going to buy the digital so I can read what is inside. But yes, this one is my new prize possession.

Thank you for advice, I guess when all the books get in slabs we will really know. But how systems are aligning the slabs can be exchanged closer to currency since people will not need much knowledge on random graded Pokémon card, video game, VHS or comic to know its value. I'm mostly filling my purse with SS comics that people are dumping at <$60, 🤷 the math doesn't make since since it cost more just to sign and slab the book. For the most part has anyone realized collectibles haven't been hit by the inflation train yet. 

But thank you again for all the info. I appreciate it.

[shadroch]

Do you believe that buying the low-lying fruit that other collectors are dumping cheaply is the best way to grow your collection?

[Nick Furious]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:34 AM, shadroch said:

Do you believe that buying the low-lying fruit that other collectors are dumping cheaply is the best way to grow your collection?

I think that getting 3 signatures and a slab for $16 plus shipping will minimize the sting of it, regardless if the approach to collecting is optimal or not.  

[shadroch]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:03 AM, Nick Furious said:

I think that getting 3 signatures and a slab for $16 plus shipping will minimize the sting of it, regardless if the approach to collecting is optimal or not.  

Especially when one thinks it might be worth thousands.  Now, all he has to do is find a buyer. 

[Antillia Island]

_{I'm basing my estimate on one auction listing to $79,000 and another non-graded version (which we know will only get graded as marked up book) selling for $3,000. (where are they coming up with those prices, they just don't slap thousands for no reason) But ya, I don't want to sale it, not in this price climate. Those are really good low hanging fruit, prices will roughly follow cost of grading and signatures. Everyones salary is going up, $90 signatures will be a thing of the past, a McDonalds entry-level cashier is now making $20/hr-$25/h so I can see $500 signatures in the next five years. The rate of inflation is already pushing a Big Mac at almost $10, A regular comic book has always been a little higher than a Big Mac for almost 50 years. But now you can get 2 books for the price of a Big Mac. something is off.} 

_{Plus, factoring in the accurate price charting that I can watch price fluctuations on my phone, on a daily basis like the stock market, is a game changer. Attracting a whole different sector of "investor" type collectors. E-bay vault storage service in which I can exchange ownership of item with a click. Things are moving fast. Ya I'm going to pick all the low hanging fruit, I feel the prices are dirt cheap right now. it's almost ludicrous.} 

[Dr. Balls]

As far as sales go, a seller who wants to inflate the value of an item on Ebay can put a $2000 price tag and take a shill account and "Win" it, then cancel the sale - without having to pay any seller fees. A cancelled sale still shows up in a Sold Items search, so if you see a $40 book that sold for $2000 (or whatever the number) - I would say that there is a high likelihood that it was an attempt to make something appear more valuable. Really sneaky sellers have multiple shill accounts and they place bids to make it look as if multiple people are interested.

This has been going on for decades on Ebay.

It sounds like you found the price in active listings, so I'm not sure if any have previously sold to bolster the inflated price. Some sellers also create stupidly high prices on some books to get people to look at their Ebay Store and generate clicks to promote other sales. This is effective and pointless at the same time.

The book in question doesn't have any iconic creators who's notoriety and signature rarity would play a part in valuation. Not that *everyone* is into Frank Frazetta, but his CGC SS books are not terribly common, and his signature commands $1500+ and he will go down as one of the greatest modern day artists in history. I'm not sure the reputation of these three creators puts them into the same value range for their autographs.

I think what you paid for the book is a fair price for your collection. Will you flip it and make more? It depends on what those creators do, and how important this book is to their career in comics.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[Antillia Island]

Ya I’m sure people try all kinds of tricks. I don’t mind because they always lose in the end. You don’t get rich by inflating a comic here or there, not even worth the time. Might as well sale fake watches in Times Square. 
 

but with that said there is an interesting back story to this comic. It (or its twin) can be seen on the booth table in the photos. They made a booth presence at 5 NYCC, really created a buzz around the book before COVID. This book is one of two 9.8 that can’t be recreated. Yes you could find an unsigned one (from what I can tell they had signed most copies but didn’t CGC them) and try to obtain the signatures and hope it gets a 9.8. But even that it won’t have the signatures dates from 2014. 
 

but it’s kind of so rare it’s not in tracking systems. I don't mind as I have a bad habit of never selling my expensive things, so I’ll put it in a nice cloth bag, stash it in my safe, and be happy with my $2,000 price dreams.

[MAR1979]

Its great to picked slabbed book at auction one want for less than the price of the slabbing and other costs. However there are usually reasons for that! Occam's razor dictates it's simply because no one else was willing to even pay the amount you did.

 

  

On 10/14/2023 at 11:48 AM, Antillia Island said:

 

but it’s kind of so rare it’s not in tracking systems. I don't mind as I have a bad habit of never selling my expensive things, so I’ll put it in a nice cloth bag, stash it in my safe, and be happy with my $2,000 price dreams.

 

ah yes, the ol' lock up a 16 dollar item in a Safe

Edited October 14, 2023 by MAR1979

[JollyComics]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, Antillia Island said:

_{I'm basing my estimate on one auction listing to $79,000 and another non-graded version (which we know will only get graded as marked up book) selling for $3,000. (where are they coming up with those prices, they just don't slap thousands for no reason) But ya, I don't want to sale it, not in this price climate. Those are really good low hanging fruit, prices will roughly follow cost of grading and signatures. Everyones salary is going up, $90 signatures will be a thing of the past, a McDonalds entry-level cashier is now making $20/hr-$25/h so I can see $500 signatures in the next five years. The rate of inflation is already pushing a Big Mac at almost $10, A regular comic book has always been a little higher than a Big Mac for almost 50 years. But now you can get 2 books for the price of a Big Mac. something is off.} 

_{Plus, factoring in the accurate price charting that I can watch price fluctuations on my phone, on a daily basis like the stock market, is a game changer. Attracting a whole different sector of "investor" type collectors. E-bay vault storage service in which I can exchange ownership of item with a click. Things are moving fast. Ya I'm going to pick all the low hanging fruit, I feel the prices are dirt cheap right now. it's almost ludicrous.} 

Spoiler

You got a good deal through.

 

[Nick Furious]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:33 AM, Antillia Island said:

For the most part has anyone realized collectibles haven't been hit by the inflation train yet. 

Hmmmm, hadn't realized that.

On 10/14/2023 at 10:00 AM, Antillia Island said:

The rate of inflation is already pushing a Big Mac at almost $10, A regular comic book has always been a little higher than a Big Mac for almost 50 years

Even more Hmmmm.

[DougC]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Antillia Island said:

This book is one of two 9.8 that can’t be recreated.

Just for reference there are four 9.8s and two 9.6s. CGC mislabeled the publisher of two of them, which does not add rarity of value.

[Antillia Island]

@DougC

Yes, I was wondering if some other hidden area for the CGC since the description is vague. But still 4 is rare in my book, I get it, the traditional concept of demand is almost zero. I have a strange feeling this projects isn't dead, just recovering from COVID. I definitely want to hold on to it because this the book has a lot more stories to tell, and I want to be there.  

But yes thank you, I thought about your advice, I was going to add Wolverine #1 (1982) to my collection because Frank Miller signatures on it are dipping below $300. But yes, I looked at CGC and there is more than 1000 9.8s in the system and over 25,000 total graded. (wondered how many are still out there ungraded and Frank Miller appears to sign once a year) .... did everyone keep this issue? Those are crazy high numbers. I understand the demand is high for the book but IDK this CGC census thing and growing (E-bay and other) vault systems.

I'd prefer a very low census signature books in my vault then something with over 1000 already minted. I've seen NFTs just skyrocket with no apparent logic behind them mostly driven by low minting numbers. Graded signature books are a little more tricky to create, in some time when we get rid of this snail mail and the vault systems are in place, I can see the vault book prices will drop when an artist announces they would do a signature event. (haha, I guess in the future people can do "inside trading" and short books, how long will it last until the SEC hunts us down ) But, crypto we have been searching for something as a backing in which we could trade, but not USD, gold, stock or established comedies. Most my friends are looking at graded VHS but I tossed a bunch of my mothers VHS cassettes so it makes me sad. 

Anyway, Thank You for advice. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/15/2023 at 7:14 PM, Antillia Island said:

I've seen NFTs just skyrocket with no apparent logic behind them mostly driven by low minting numbers. Graded signature books are a little more tricky to create, in some time when we get rid of this snail mail and the vault systems are in place, I can see the vault book prices will drop when an artist announces they would do a signature event. (haha, I guess in the future people can do "inside trading" and short books, how long will it last until the SEC hunts us down ) But, crypto we have been searching for something as a backing in which we could trade, but not USD, gold, stock or established comedies.

Anything that skyrockets with no logic is a big red flag that it's being manipulated (generally by marketing psychographics) by a minority at the cost of the majority. Stocks, NFTs, Cryptos, whatever. Comic books are tangible things people enjoy - even in a slab, I don't know how effective getting rid of snail mail delivery of your collectible will be. The "vault" concept is an attempt to convince younger generations (who legitimately want to show off their collection on their phone, rather than in person due to social drawbacks, lack of storage space, etc) that you can collect "valuable" collectibles in a new, modern way. Will it work? Who knows - I'm not of that generation, but I understand the drive to push to concept.

To suggest backing or trading on books means that there has to be an external force pushing the value of those things. I don't think comics or comic art will ever gain that level of awareness, and we are likely at the tail-end of the comic book pop culture explosion, with other things beginning to take it's place. Not that comics will ever go away, but it will probably settle back to the normal collectible hobby it used to be.

The field is too scattered, unfocused and littered with short-lived stuff that is hyped to the stratosphere for the first issue where creators make a ton of money, then never heard of again. Self-publishing and distribution didn't endure 40 years ago, and it won't endure today - not saying it doesn't work: it does. But it doesn't scale up into monumental profits or expandable properties.

No new inroads to the comic culture are being created on a consistent scale where they continue to live on past their first introduction into society. This happened in the 80's and early 90's, where small publishers produced anything that had 32 pages, resulting in a glut of creator-owned stories of which only a very few saw longevity. Coupled with the fact that comic distribution had room to improve at the expense of those books - Diamond came in, bought up all the distributors and created new guidelines for creators - combined with the sales slowing down due to the glut, the comic industry was pared down, almost to extinction.

My point in all this is that there are very little options left in the comic industry to reinvent itself. Again, not saying comics are going away, but the idea that they are a hugely investable commodity is probably not going to take. Some comics will always be valuable, but that's not going to apply to anything made in the past 20 years.

Walking Dead #1 was around $2200 for a 9.8 in 2012. In 2023 it's $2300. That's not a good return at all if you had that put into a "vault" and paid fees for storage on a book made in the past 20 years. Apple stock in 2012 was $16.28, in 2023 it's $178 and it split at least twice since then. That's a viable investment, comic books are a "fun" investment that people should expect a loss on, and hope for break even or better.

That's just my opinion, but like a lot of people around here - we've seen it wax and wane over the decades.