I am done with CGC, completely fed up! Major slab holder issue. 7 7

[Nick Furious]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

Perhaps it's a sign of respect that no one felt they needed to come to your defense.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:12 PM, Nick Furious said:

On 10/22/2023 at 5:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

Perhaps it's a sign of respect that no one felt they needed to come to your defense.  

Amen 🙏 I typed this but wasn't sure which thread a question was asked for it, so I had edited to not somehow do a multiple thread snafu.

As for sticking up for someone, I just didn't want to prolong the squabble. Too much going on these days to always add my 2 cents about things that can be set aside for a place to have fun somehow in a hobby. I saw nothing wrong with @Get Marwood & I posts. Didn't feel the need to ask questions, and no further semantics.

The slab and book is the issue. I just say "this gen holder" as "-the holder to question"

Seems more like they've used their funds to perfect it in ways that aren't as obvious. Needle meet haystack.

@BigLeagueCHEW you mentioned no dropping of this book? I seem to remember a parentheses but been a long day.

Edited October 23, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[VintageComics]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:14 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

@VintageComics Why were the slab tabs introduced in the first place? Isn’t this like a safety restraint to reduce movement and cause damage? Why put a child in a car seat, leave them to bounce around in the back seat! I can park a semi in the gap of this damaged book.

Well, it's complicated because you can't be too tight OR too lose.

But the reality is that ANY comic will get damaged if you drop it hard enough. 

The Modern holders that used pinched edges to keep your book moving was basically a Mylar with tapered edges and no hard edges. 

Covers still tore off. 

I still believe the problem is in the packaging. Not with the slab. 

That's what my techie mind thinks. 

On 10/22/2023 at 9:39 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Sorry I stepped away for a bit. You made valid points to me. I agree with everything you said. The comic has way too much room to move. If we had the same comic e.g. this example, let’s say valued at a million dollars, one with the tab inserts and one without, @VintageComics you would be comfortable with me simulating up and down, side to side movement without you cringing when I did the test on the tab less comic? 
 

Anyone who reads this please like if you agree that you would not want the tab less copy simulated in a test.

I am sure CGC has done a TON of testing on slabs. 

On 10/22/2023 at 10:10 PM, The Lions Den said:

I would like to point out that while the outer holder has changed (and in my view is more secure than the old holder) the inner wells appear to be exactly the same. So even if it were possible, going back to the old holder wouldn't be a viable solution...  

 

That's actually a very good point. 

They originally came out with an OUTER well and NO INNER well. The outer wells were causing books to wrinkle from the pressure (the term people came up with was "creep engine") as the pressure from the sides of the wells caused the book to experience inward pressure toward the center of the book. 

They went BACK to the old holder.

So you're saying it's the exact same old holder?

Good to know. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:04 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

 So be aware of staple and cover tear/detaching of your collectibles. You now have this loose area around the book and if it is somewhat pinched in the holder, or possibly dropped (Not this example) be prepared for full cover or staple detaching.

this threw me off and is what had me confused, which guess might matter for this situation but to shed some light?

[ADAMANTIUM]

I personally know that the time between creep engine and rings was 2 to 3 months, and even old stuff readded was in a span of years I thought?

Either way, I thought that the new gen holder somehow had certain periods of being OK, given its been 8 years from 2016 inception. Idk

I guess I just remembered rings being the main downside, guess I'll have to stay tuned.

 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

this threw me off and is what had me confused, which guess might matter for this situation but to shed some light?

Got it, tried to explain it as much as I could. Not dropped as in I didn’t drop it. If that made sense? This copy looks like it tumbled down a hill.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:03 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Got it, tried to explain it as much as I could. Not dropped as in I didn’t drop it. If that made sense? This copy looks like it tumbled down a hill.

@VintageComics has a point that it also can't be too loose or the outer edges will get bumped cause blunted edges and tears with folds.

Going in I thought this hadn't dropped and was holdered malfunction, but then cgc mike offered to help, but then idk if that is possible cause it doesn't sound like just back from CGC.

That in no way takes away from the point that it SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, but helps to clarify if at all common?

You stated being done with CGC, and I see this as TRULY unfortunate but am having a hard time figuring out if "it could happen to me 😂 which sounds selfish, so let's just say this:

Is it somehow preventable? Or do you have any type of tip or solution? It's perfectly understandable that it stinks, cause it does, I'm just not sure "what" to say... 

Which goes back.ti why I didn't initially add my two cents. Eek

 

[Buzzetta]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:39 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Anyone who reads this please like if you agree that you would not want the tab less copy simulated in a test.

I don’t want to be shaken… let alone my comics. 
 

Cue @lizards2

[Buzzetta]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:26 PM, VintageComics said:

 

I still believe the problem is in the packaging. Not with the slab. 

 

So I keep coming back to Vintage Star Wars figures when you mention this.  Over time the glue attacking the bubbles has worn thin and the bubbles themselves have grown increasingly fragile.  
 

Compare the inner figure as the comic and the bubbles itself as the CGC case.  The figure is obviously someone snug in that the bubble is form fitting but still loose.  As well as people will pack a vintage Star Wars figure the bubble can crack or come loose from the figure moving around underneath it.  Just the inertia alone of a package in motion is enough to case the figure to bump against the bubble and cause damage.  
 

If the figures were more secure they would not bounce themselves or shift in the package.  I think it’s the looseness in the well and not so much the shipping.  Now obviously a poorly packaged book will cause damage as a direct strike maximize the force held in impact.  Keep in mind though that if an object is loose it will move around though no matter how well something is packaged. 

[lizards2]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:48 PM, Buzzetta said:

I don’t want to be shaken… let alone my comics. 
 

Cue @lizards2

Don't ship comics in slabs. Of the five slabs sold in my epic DC sales thread, buyers requested me to remove four of the comics before shipping. It was exhilarating. Especially removing pedigree comics from their tombs.

One comment I have to add on the horizontal vs. vertical, you can't predict what direction the books will be once shipping commences, and gorillas start tossing carp around.

[VintageComics]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:01 AM, Buzzetta said:

So I keep coming back to Vintage Star Wars figures when you mention this.  Over time the glue attacking the bubbles has worn thin and the bubbles themselves have grown increasingly fragile.  
 

Compare the inner figure as the comic and the bubbles itself as the CGC case.  The figure is obviously someone snug in that the bubble is form fitting but still loose.  As well as people will pack a vintage Star Wars figure the bubble can crack or come loose from the figure moving around underneath it.  Just the inertia alone of a package in motion is enough to case the figure to bump against the bubble and cause damage.  
 

If the figures were more secure they would not bounce themselves or shift in the package.  I think it’s the looseness in the well and not so much the shipping.  Now obviously a poorly packaged book will cause damage as a direct strike maximize the force held in impact.  Keep in mind though that if an object is loose it will move around though no matter how well something is packaged. 

Totally get you. 

I think we're talking slightly next to each other. 

What I mean is that I've already accepted that we need the have the perfect amount of tight vs loose pressure on the book and this is as good as it's going to get. I don't foresee a new solution anytime soon after 20 years of trying, so the percentage of books that are doing to get damaged are going to depend now on the packaging,

And I know I'm just spitballing but from what I innately understand about physics and how things work, I am fairly certain that a different packaging method not only WILL reduce slab damage from whatever the current average is we've seen actual testimony of it in regards to Comiclink's packaging. 

And for the Star Wars shipping problem I understand the similarities and the differences. 

There are shipping solutions for that issue but the solution is entirely different in that example because in that example, you're not trying to stop the object inside from moving. 

You're trying to stop the bubble from moving relative to the card (or cardboard) and so you'd have to secure them externally to keep the two rigid to each other so that if the toy inside gets shaken, the bubble doesn't try to tear away from the card. 

----------------------------------

Off on a tangent, but relative and also absolutely a killer story...

I know this security guard who is up their with the best of the best. He's worked on Presidential Guards (US), celebrities, heads of state from foreign countries...you name it. 

So he had some incredible stories to share.

Like when he's hired to transport the wife of some foreign billionaire dignitary in a bulletproof vehicle, he's your man. 

 

So he told me this story about how he was hired to transport A WINE BOTTLE FROM THE TITANIC!!!  

His job was to pick up the bottle on the East coast and bring it back to the West coast. 

I don't remember what it was worth? Maybe Dr. Google can help. 

Anyway, the lengths they went to to make sure this bottle was safe was absolutely MIND boggling. 

They designed a case to hold the bottle, but the case was designed so that if the case fell out of the air from a helicopter or a plane that the bottle inside would not get damaged!!!   

I asked to make sure and he confirmed. 

And it had to be tested before they made the actual journey.

So yeah, you CAN build something that is better but how much is it going to cost you to do that and is anyone going to pay for it?

Way cheaper to just catch a flight and pick up the book at that point.

Edited October 23, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:29 AM, lizards2 said:

One comment I have to add on the horizontal vs. vertical, you can't predict what direction the books will be once shipping commences, and gorillas start tossing carp around.

100% agree.

But there is a difference between when a slab lands vertically in a cardboard box with no cushion under the slab to absorb the impact and the Comiclink style packaging where the books are in a bubblewrap envelope and then that bubblewrap envelope is in a sea of peanuts. 

The impact in the cardboard box still transfers the impact more directly through to the slab when it lands vertically, which is more often than not in those big boxes because they're tall and the labels are always on top. What I envision helping would be some slight, thin foam or bubblewrap layer - just a sheet under all the slabs so that WHEN (not if) they are impacted that protective layer absorbs the biggest shocks. That way the lesser, reduced shocks that transfer to the slabs don't affect the books nearly as much with each impact. 

With the Comiclink style packaging the bubble wrap envelopes extend past the slabs (the slabs are enclosed in the envelopes) and so that extended bubble wrap at either end of the slabs absorbs any shock those slabs experience with almost NONE of the shock reaching the slabs (remember, the slabs are also tight in the bubble wrap envelopes so that pressure on the faces of the slab also allows some absorption by slowing down the back and forth of the movement of the slab on impacts) and finally, you ONLY have to worry about those vertical type impacts some of the time. 

Most of the time the box travels with the label on top, keeping the slabs horizontal the majority of the time, which is the best way for them to travel. 

Folks, I've been talking about this for 20 years. It seems common sense to me because I was a former technician but I guess not everyone sees it that easily. 

[The Lions Den]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:26 PM, VintageComics said:

So you're saying it's the exact same old holder?

The only difference I can see is they often trim the top edge a bit more in what appears to be an effort to accommodate the new style of label... 

[Domo Arigato]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:47 AM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Here is a prime example of how the holder should keep the comic intact via a hard impact. As you can see there is no staple tear with this one because it is secured in the holder.

 

Ebay Link

 

Adding photos in case the listing is archived/removed/deleted in the eBay system.

 

Staple and cover are fine:

The staple area looks like it might be ok.

But that book definitely suffered damage to the bottom right edge on the back cover.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:13 AM, Domo Arigato said:

The staple area looks like it might be ok.

But that book definitely suffered damage to the bottom right edge on the back cover.

Which one would expect with that much of an impact.

[Domo Arigato]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:28 AM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Which one would expect with that much of an impact.

Absolutely.  Looks like it took a pretty hard whack.

Seller claimed the slab is damaged but that "the comic itself is unharmed".....and then some door knob paid almost $2k for it.  

 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:49 PM, VintageComics said:

 

Wanna be engineer here, voracious learner and a techie and technician. 

 

Reviewed by a non techie engineer, my wife, who has zero experience with engineering or comics, not saying she isn't smart, gasped when she seen this book, then asked "Is it supposed to have that much room around it to flop around, no wonder it was damaged in transit." 

[Galen130]

@BigLeagueCHEW Best of luck getting this one resolved.  I have zero faith in CGC anymore, but I'm a cynic now.  You may fare better.

I'm outta here!!! 

[shadroch]

On 10/22/2023 at 3:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

Sometimes, crossing the street is easier than continuing a pointless confrontation. Rather than defend you, I'll advise you to move on. Life is too short to waste on petty arguments.  Take a deep breath, ask yourself who you are arguing with and why. Then go do something worthwhile.

[shadroch]

The packaging on a Star Wars toy was meant to help sell the products, and I doubt any thought was put into what would happen to the glue forty years after it was sold.

CGC's package is supposed to protect the interior forever.