I am done with CGC, completely fed up! Major slab holder issue. 7 7

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:14 PM, VintageComics said:

You end the post by saying this:

Am I being unreasonable? Look at the room for movement around that comic.

That conclusion leads me to conclude that YOU ARE CRITICIZING CGC SLABS FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO TAKE AN IMPACT. 

I'll say it again. I am not criticizing CGC slabs for not being able to take an impact. I am criticising CGC slabs with the amount of room that BigLeague's book has for making damage a near certainty. It's even in the words above. 

Note also how I didn't call you 'Dude', and shout a lot in capitals. That's because I'm calm and not trying to be patronising.

[VintageComics]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:19 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'll say it again. I am not criticizing CGC slabs for not being able to take an impact. I am criticising CGC slabs with the amount of room that BigLeague's book has for making damage a near certainty. It's even in the words above. 

So, you're criticizing the CGC slab for making damage a near certainty from impact because it "doesn't have enough room" but you're not criticizing the CGC slab for making damage a near certainty from impact. 

Well, now I'm even more confused. 

If someone else agrees with you, I'll donate $100 to your favorite charity but at this point I'm going to agree to disagree and stop replying there's nothing left to discuss. 

On 10/22/2023 at 6:19 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Note also how I didn't call you 'Dude', and shout a lot in capitals. That's because I'm calm and not trying to be patronising.

Yeah, nice try. I'm totally calm. I'm not shouting.

I post capital letters for EMPHASIS. 

And there was no patronising unless you're good at reading minds. Lately everyone seems to be able to do that. 

[VintageComics]

And I call EVERYONE dude including women so don't think you're special. 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

[jaybuck43]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:19 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'll say it again. I am not criticizing CGC slabs for not being able to take an impact. I am criticising CGC slabs with the amount of room that BigLeague's book has for making damage a near certainty. It's even in the words above. 

Note also how I didn't call you 'Dude', and shout a lot in capitals. That's because I'm calm and not trying to be patronising.

The book literally like it's able to move around INSIDE the slab.  Makes no sense.  Obviously the slab should not be able to handle a hard impact, it's plastic after all and would crack etc.  But not supposed to move around like that, to the point that the staples ripped and the cover slipped down.  Insane.

[newshane]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:46 PM, Larryw7 said:

Go  back to the old slabs.

No way. They are trash compared to the new ones. 

This damage looks like it's due to mishandling, not the design of the slab. 

Slabs aren't meant to be dropped. 

[newshane]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:21 AM, namisgr said:

I feel your dismay.  But I'm not sticking up for anyone in pointing out the reality that Mike will require input from those whose schedules he doesn't control to answer the question posed here.  I would expect a response by Monday or Tuesday, though, and would certainly share your consternation if one weren't posted by then.

The same can be said for the matter of microchamber paper, and which current submissions are or are not getting it in their encapsulations.

If I were still submitting a bunch of books to CGC for grading and slabbing, there are a whole host of issues that would concern me, and likely limit my business.  Slab damage is certainly a main concern. 

I've definitely placed a few high value reholders on hold. Just too rare and expensive to risk this nonsense. Hopefully the CGC will make it right. 

[VintageComics]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:43 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The book literally like it's able to move around INSIDE the slab.  Makes no sense.  Obviously the slab should not be able to handle a hard impact, it's plastic after all and would crack etc.  But not supposed to move around like that, to the point that the staples ripped and the cover slipped down.  Insane.

I forgot to address one more thing with Marwood. 

He was saying it was a double sized book AND that it was "too loose". 

You're saying it's too loose. 

Those two comments dovetail nicely into this:

You're complaining about it being "too loose" but that's not how the slab works.

The inner holder being "too loose" would NOT make the staples tear like that. You'd get SCS instead because the entire book would move with inside the inner well (cover AND interior).

If you make the slab too tight, it pinches the cover and the staples tear. 

They have different inner holders to fit the various thicknesses of books. Whether they chose the right one for this book can only be found out if CGC inspects the holder. 

 

 

[Buzzetta]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:02 PM, VintageComics said:

I forgot to address one more thing with Marwood. 

He was saying it was a double sized book AND that it was "too loose". 

You're saying it's too loose. 

Those two comments dovetail nicely into this:

You're complaining about it being "too loose" but that's not how the slab works.

The inner holder being "too loose" would NOT make the staples tear like that. You'd get SCS instead because the entire book would move with inside the inner well (cover AND interior).

If you make the slab too tight, it pinches the cover and the staples tear. 

They have different inner holders to fit the various thicknesses of books. Whether they chose the right one for this book can only be found out if CGC inspects the holder. 

 

 

Is it possible to have both?   We know that with most books the stapled side of the book is "slightly" rounded and thicker with the addition of the staples.  If the inner well is "grabbing" that side of the book because of the slightly additional thickness but allowing movement on the other side can it cause damage?  The side with the open pages is not firmly in place and it would be free to shift while the bound side stays in place.  This would cause the staple tears. 

I don't know the terminology anymore.  So forgive me if I am getting the terminology wrong.

Again, I do not know... I am merely suggesting. 

[jaybuck43]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:45 PM, newshane said:

No way. They are trash compared to the new ones. 

This damage looks like it's due to mishandling, not the design of the slab. 

Slabs aren't meant to be dropped. 

There's no damage to the slab.  Does that make sense?  If I dropped a book hard enough for the cover to move down and rip off the staples (it's a modern 9.8 not a vintage low grade book which may have loose or partially detached staples) it SHOULD cause some damage to the holder (a hairline crack, etc.  You can see the damage in the X-Men book. I agree that slabs aren't meant to be dropped, but honestly I've dropped plenty of slabs and never had damage like this. 

[The Lions Den]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:02 PM, VintageComics said:

They have different inner holders to fit the various thicknesses of books. Whether they chose the right one for this book can only be found out if CGC inspects the holder. 

This could very well be the case. Certain books don't always match the inner wells properly...     

[VintageComics]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:27 PM, Buzzetta said:

Is it possible to have both?   We know that with most books the stapled side of the book is "slightly" rounded and thicker with the addition of the staples.  If the inner well is "grabbing" that side of the book because of the slightly additional thickness but allowing movement on the other side can it cause damage?  The side with the open pages is not firmly in place and it would be free to shift while the bound side stays in place.  This would cause the staple tears. 

I don't know the terminology anymore.  So forgive me if I am getting the terminology wrong.

Again, I do not know... I am merely suggesting. 

CGC has explained it before. 

I think they believe the tearing happens because the cover "sticks" to the inner and outer wells from static electricity. I remember reading that. 

As to designing a better well, I actually don't think that's possible after 20 years. They'd have done it by now if it was. Billion dollar companies wouldn't skimp pennies if there was a better solution.

Remember, Borock posted here YEARS ago that if someone had a better design, CGC would pay them for it. 

There is no real 100% solution but your best chances of avoiding slab damage is in the shipping, NOT in the slab design anymore. 

That's where everyone's focus needs to be. 

 

[The Lions Den]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

I'd like to think that everyone here has valuable insight, but sometimes it's not what they say, it's how they say it. Your points were valued, at least by me...  

 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:31 AM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

You are 100% correct. There should be no room for movement at all. The CGC old holder, and when they actually cared, had this. As you can see how import it is to have the comic secured and prevent movement.

 

@VintageComics Why were the slab tabs introduced in the first place? Isn’t this like a safety restraint to reduce movement and cause damage? Why put a child in a car seat, leave them to bounce around in the back seat! I can park a semi in the gap of this damaged book.

[newshane]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:28 PM, jaybuck43 said:

There's no damage to the slab.  Does that make sense?  If I dropped a book hard enough for the cover to move down and rip off the staples (it's a modern 9.8 not a vintage low grade book which may have loose or partially detached staples) it SHOULD cause some damage to the holder (a hairline crack, etc.  You can see the damage in the X-Men book. I agree that slabs aren't meant to be dropped, but honestly I've dropped plenty of slabs and never had damage like this. 

It MIGHT cause some damage to the holder itself, but it's very possible for the book to be damaged while the holder remains intact. Could have been dropped on carpet. Could have been dropped hard inside the box (the CGC doesn't pack well these days, from what I hear). 

My first thought was "the book was dropped or slammed." 

It's a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out. 

I don't think it's the holder design. Hundreds of thousands of them are out there. If it were a holder design, we'd see this sort of damage far more often. 

[CGC Mike]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:20 AM, alexgross.com said:

@CGC Mike

I am available.  If the OP would like me to assist him, just send me a PM.  

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 10/22/2023 at 4:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

Sorry I stepped away for a bit. You made valid points to me. I agree with everything you said. The comic has way too much room to move. If we had the same comic e.g. this example, let’s say valued at a million dollars, one with the tab inserts and one without, @VintageComics you would be comfortable with me simulating up and down, side to side movement without you cringing when I did the test on the tab less comic? 
 

Anyone who reads this please like if you agree that you would not want the tab less copy simulated in a test.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:39 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

On 10/22/2023 at 5:27 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Do you know, I thought I'd made some good points in this thread today. I really did. Now I'm trying to defend myself against an accusation from Roy about something that I certainly did not intend to say and I'm reasonably confident that I didn't. 

Everyone goes quiet. No one comes forward to defend me, as I would them. 

This is Roy's forum. He never gives an inch. I wish I was as right about one thing as he is about everything. I made a point, he twisted it, and now we have all this.

Night everyone. 

Sorry I stepped away for a bit. You made valid points to me. I agree with everything you said. The comic has way too much room to move. If we had the same comic e.g. this example, let’s say valued at a million dollars, one with the tab inserts and one without, @VintageComics you would be comfortable with me simulating up and down, side to side movement without you cringing when I did the test on the tab less comic? 
 

Anyone who reads this please like if you agree that you would not want the tab less copy simulated in a test.

All well and good, I'll admit I checked my copy, which is tabless and was graded in 2018. I took a sigh of relief as that seems like a while ago. I do know that since 2016 when the "new case" came around that there have been at least a bakers dozen nuances with it, so to say it has been modified since inception is an understatement.

I don't recall this thread or others like it back in 2018, which I traded a hulk 181 cgc 3.0 +$325 for my asm 300 9,8. That looked like a clear win for a while, but the collector in me kept it, so gut punches aside (I'm trying to wrap my head around it) any sigh of relief I can get 

Edited October 23, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

I went and looked and the QC thread was started in 2014, and I do recall the no inner well at all with rings in 2016 upon arrival of the new cases.

@BigLeagueCHEW that is a tough pill that all of us pray it doesn't happen, and yet, idk that CGC can in your situation make it right but it's worth a shot. I'm still going to submit to CGC, and I understand why others won't. There isn't closure or a way to end this with a concise determination, other than it shouldn't have happened.

[The Lions Den]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:33 PM, VintageComics said:

As to designing a better well, I actually don't think that's possible after 20 years. They'd have done it by now if it was. Billion dollar companies wouldn't skimp pennies if there was a better solution.

I would like to point out that while the outer holder has changed (and in my view is more secure than the old holder) the inner wells appear to be exactly the same. So even if it were possible, going back to the old holder wouldn't be a viable solution...