COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[Bookery]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:24 AM, VintageComics said:

Read my post again. It's not a discussion about movies. It's a discussion about how comics are nothing more than a marketing tool for the movie houses and so they care little about the quality of the story telling and more about how the stories will drive people to their movies. 

You brought a movie into the discussion to make an analogy with what is going on in the comics industry, I understand that.  I'm just commenting on how animated (no pun intended) the discussion got when it followed-up on your point and went full-bore cinema.  Now to be honest... I'm over-simplifying.  If I were to be fair, let's face it... after 20 years of a comics board, most topics have been covered endlessly, which is why fresh meat, even if it's not solely on-topic, is often devoured with gusto.  I just thought there was a bit of irony is all, and was having some fun with the observation. 

[It's the Friday after Thanksgiving, and I'm also clearly stalling on getting back into the drudge of processing a pile of drek].

[VintageComics]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:41 AM, Bookery said:

[It's the Friday after Thanksgiving, and I'm also clearly stalling on getting back into the drudge of processing a pile of drek].

Slacker!

On 11/24/2023 at 9:41 AM, Bookery said:

You brought a movie into the discussion to make an analogy with what is going on in the comics industry, I understand that.  I'm just commenting on how animated (no pun intended) the discussion got when it followed-up on your point and went full-bore cinema.  Now to be honest... I'm over-simplifying.  If I were to be fair, let's face it... after 20 years of a comics board, most topics have been covered endlessly, which is why fresh meat, even if it's not solely on-topic, is often devoured with gusto.  I just thought there was a bit of irony is all, and was having some fun with the observation. 

Everyone loves fresh meat! 

I just think this angle I've presented is a fresh take that nobody has thought about or discussed on here in detail, and yet it has been quite literally growing in front of our eyes in real time. 

The cancellation of the Fantastic Four comic books a decade ago is when I started to realize something was amiss. There were lots of excuses then, but now in hindsight we can paint a much clearer picture that NOBODY can dispute any longer because we now have the full view. 

The point I've made is immutable and unequivocal. 

------------------------------------

In case new readers here didn't know, from 2014:

Between the Panels: Why It's Good Marvel Cancelled Fantastic Four 

It's been a persistent rumor all year that Marvel is planning to cancel their Fantastic Four comic as part of an ongoing feud with 20th Century Fox over the franchise's film rights. Sure enough, Marvel confirmed the series' cancellation at NYCC last week. While we can only speculate as to the motivations behind the decision, clearly things aren't looking up for the World's Greatest Comics Magazine.

-------------------------------------

The progression into movie talk is not only necessary, it's unavoidable because MULTI MEDIA reaching a base of BILLIONS OF FANS is much more lucrative than just comics reaching a fan base of millions of fans. 

Comics are not the end goal anymore. Movies, toys, video games and other merchandise are the goal and you are being groomed as a consumer society to be fed all of this. Comics are just the comb used for grooming. 

The story, the art, the complexity and uniqueness of the art, EVEN THE PROFIT FROM COMICS are all secondary to the much greater market. 

So, the audience will either try to digest this "fresh meat" or argue why they're Vegan, as these seem to be the two sides formed around the world. 

Literally and figuratively. 

Let's see the Vegans try to talk their way out of this one. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[Buzzetta]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:27 AM, VintageComics said:

Please stop with the personal commentary. 

"Physician, heal thyself."

On 11/24/2023 at 9:02 AM, VintageComics said:

You're thinking like a "mom and pop" grocery store on Long Island owned by Grandma. 

I'm talking about someone who OWNS LONG ISLAND. 

Let's pretend the person who owns Long Island owns Claussen Pickles, the largest brand in America. Let's pretend Grandma with a "mom and pop" store on Long Island started Boars Head Pickles, a much smaller brand and Boars Head starts gaining on Claussen. 

The person who owns Long Island and Claussen will ABSOLUTELY torch Grandma to keep their Boars Head Pickles from gaining momentum, even if it means a short term loss in that particular town. The net profitability for Long Island is up because now everyone else has to carry Claussen which are exported to the rest of the country. Boars Head has been crushed and pulled from competing shelves. 

And I know what everyone is thinking. "Conspiracy theory".

And yet it's all here in black and white and easy to prove. 

-----------------------

How does this relate to comics and the germane points in this discussion as a whole?

I'm glad you asked. 

Corporations care very little for the end product's art form. They care about profitability on a grand scale, not how Marvel does in comics.

Are you eating Claussen or Boars Head pickles?

 

Again, I was talking about certain companies where the profit is designed to push the mission instead of the mission designed to push the profit.  And yes, I realize that billion dollar corporations are of a different nature which is why I immediately separated the two.  I also recommend that you try Grillos pickles.  They are better than Clausen or Boar's Head.  There are also a few artisan pickles that are good to get around here and in the city but you would not have easy access to them.  You might be able to find Grillos north of the boarder.   And yes, I have had Bicks.  eh...

On 11/24/2023 at 9:02 AM, VintageComics said:

-----------------------

How does this relate to comics and the germane points in this discussion as a whole?

I'm glad you asked. 

Corporations care very little for the end product's art form. They care about profitability on a grand scale, not how Marvel does in comics.

Are you eating Claussen or Boars Head pickles?

The comics (Boars Head Pickles), which reach a few hundred or a few million people, are now just another disposable business tool to drive the greatest profits which come from: Media, merchandising and selling you things which reach BILLIONS of people (Claussen Pickles). 

So if they can torch something for higher profits, it's happening faster than you can pour gasoline on it. 

I redirect everyone to when Marvel quite LITERALLY STOPPED PUBLISHING THE FANTASTIC FOUR COMIC TO STARVE FOX OF THEIR FF MOVIE RIGHTS. 

We discussed it all here almost a decade ago! Has everyone forgotten?

And then, after starving Fox out, they finally ended up buying the rights from Fox a few short years after. 

People, we are arguing numbering systems and artists and playing checkers, while they are playing chess by torching entire franchises for profit. 

THE CORPORATE WORLD IS AFFECTING THE ART FORM.

This is the world we live in currently.

Tell me again how what I'm talking about is conspiracy theory and I'm talking out of my butt?

I can't wait to see who is going to offer a rebuttal now. 

Never disputed that Marvel or corporations have NOT taken drastic moves.  Everyone does remember when Ike sent wanted Marvel to retreat from FF and X-Men support across all media.  That extended across all media from comics, to shirts to toys, and everything else regardless of who had the license at the time. 

We were talking about a few specific cases whether or not it had happened in specific instances. 

Try Grillos.  

[Chip Cataldo]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:53 AM, Buzzetta said:

Try Grillos.  

I've had those. They're excellent. Roy, you do need to try them.

[EastEnd1]

I've always viewed the publishers, DC and Marvel, as the incubators... call it the media "R&D depts", where the characters and many of the storylines are born.  Warners and Disney definitely do not fund them for the direct profits they're generating.  But you'd be hard pressed to see either of those media conglomerates sell or [GASP] shut down those operations, as would happen with any other poor performing business line.  It's all about the hugely valuable intellectual property they create for the rest of the businesses... basically the "loss leader" concept.

[VintageComics]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:03 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I've always viewed the publishers, DC and Marvel, as the incubators... call it the media "R&D depts", where the characters and many of the storylines are born.  Warners and Disney definitely do not fund them for the direct profits they're generating.  But you'd be hard pressed to see either of those media conglomerates sell or [GASP] shut down those operations, as would happen with any other poor performing business line.  It's all about the hugely valuable intellectual property they create for the rest of the businesses... basically the "loss leader" concept.

Agreed. 

They won't kill the comics line because these 'incubators' as you so well put, create the food. They provide the seeds that fill the farm, but their goals changed once media expanded into a worldwide audience. 

The goal of the 'incubators' used to be to fill the farm and feed a family, or take the food to market to feed other families through a one market. 

The incubators no longer take the food to one market as the end goal, the incubators take the food to corporate distributors who feed entire countries through multiple markets, and they do that by artificially, digitally multiplying the food source and marketing it as being the same as the original, small family food source when the two are entirely different.

The quality of the food matters much less in the 2nd example, because the quantity of the food matters much more. 

You can't have both. They're diametrically opposed. 

--------------------------------------------

I made this point that I'm about to make below, many years ago:

What is happening is that ideological / philosophical paths are being exposed. There are two of them, they are wholly incompatible, and they diverged a long time ago. 

One path believes in working along strict, ideological, objective TRULY sustainable principles. This path never compromises on it's own principles because they are time proven. To put out quality, you need consistency in things like a code of behavior, and operating principles. Quality over profit plays a much longer game and is much more successful at longevity. This is how empires are built.

The other path believes it can make up the rules as they go along and tosses out objectivity for subjectivity, so it will absolutely cross it's own principles for profit every chance it gets. This path ALWAYS compromises on it's own principles for profit. It must, because if there is more profit, it must be searched out at the expense of anything else. The 'long game' on this path is really just a bunch of constant short games, being presented as an 'equal' long game through media manipulation, advertising, marketing, corporate espionage etc. JUST LIKE WE OUTLINED IN THIS THREAD. 

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF SUSTAINABLE, PRESENTING ITSELF AS SUSTAINABLE.

And we all know that in any equation, when there is one false premise, everything built on it will be incorrect. That's how corporate business works. 

-------------------------------

I always go back to the old world thinking in the automotive industry, which everyone can see and understand.

In the 1980's, corporate boardrooms hadn't yet corrupted German manufacturers and they were still building cars that were supposed to last forever. Benz had a MILLION MILE GUARANTEE on their cars for certain parts. True story. 

America was already building cars in the new world way. After the oil crisis of the 70s, using corporate driven board rooms that sought ways to squeeze blood from a stone, instead of using time honored principles, American cars were sold as quality but were absolute junk.

What happened in the 90s, was as media exploded, the digital age began to commence, and the world became wildly aware of how big of a market there was, the American corporate boardroom invaded all economic systems and greed drove even the staunch German auto manufacturers to compromise their products. 

I was there. The mid to late 90's Benzs became the most problematic cars in their entire history. One single model, the SUV ML model, built in conjunction with the US (remember, Benz merged with Chrysler and this was their first product) had more recalls than all other models combined in their 100 year history. 

That is what is happening today everywhere. You're being fed junk, being convinced it isn't junk and most people have been dumbed down too far to be able to tell the difference. 

Time for consumers to see past the razzle dazzle and make wiser choices. 

I'm off to shoot some hoops! 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[Buzzetta]

On 11/24/2023 at 5:04 AM, Prince Namor said:

This isn't a bad way to look at it, but keep in mind: no real Marvel Superhero movie had been made that really showed a possibility.

Captain America may've had a $3 million dollar budget, but did it even make that back? I couldn't find a box office total for it...

Certainly things had advanced since those late 70's Spider-man TV show and Doctor Strange movies...but really no Marvel Superhero had translated to the screen.

 

Second: Bernd Eichinger wasn't a studio. He was a producer/director. So for him, he didn't have the funds capable if making it a big production. Stan Lee had undersold those rights to it, and Eichinger WAS desperate to hang on to them, but...

 

That does make sense.  There is one additional piece to this puzzle which would be held within the actual contract that I cannot find.  There would be a difference between intent to produce and intent to produce and release.   Again, I am not pretending to know the absolute intent behind the Cormon FF.  

Eichinger might have have truly wanted to release the 1994 version of Fantastic Four and figured that he could kill two birds with one stone.  He could film it cheap enough so that after enough interest is generated, that even if it underperforms he still makes enough money to cover the financial backing or doesn't lose too much where the losses are still less than what it would have cost to re-option the rights, and he still keeps the option to make another one somewhere down the line. 

If though Eichinger had to show that he not only had to produce the film to retain the rights but demonstrate the intent to release it with a good faith effort, he MAY have gone through the motions to satisfy all aspects of the contract.  I would love to read the actual contract. 

 

Side note:  I do not believe that Captain America ever became a financial success. 

Something I did find though which is interesting:

Quote

CHATTING WITH ORIGINAL ‘CAPTAIN AMERICA’ DIRECTOR ALBERT PYUN (2011 Interview)

How did you go about creating a superhero epic on a small budget?

Well, we started with what I thought was a good budget, around $6 million—in 1989 dollars. But it became quickly apparent that Menahem was not able to close his bank financing for the project, and the cash flow just vanished. My producer, Tom Karnowski, literally was told to travel to different countries with a suitcase to pick up cash. It was a miracle the production didn’t shut down and fall apart. So we just shot as fast as possible and used that momentum to finish the shoot.

You may be correct that the financing was just not there at all for Marvel movies.   Like I said, WB changes the expected budgets to produce a good superhero movie, but it looks like studios are passing on Marvel properties until New Line options Blade, while the Cameron Spider-man, which seemed to be the only real property that a real studio was interested in, remained in developmental Hell.   It is telling that a bigger studio did not believe in the strength of Captain America.   This is not an armchair quarterback statement either, as one of the first "keys" I purchased was my copy of Avengers 4 over 25 years ago.   I said even back then, Captain America should be a major movie as all of the elements were there.  It was also the first key I upgraded to a CGC slab when they first entered the scene. 

[Buzzetta]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:57 AM, Chip Cataldo said:

I've had those. They're excellent. Roy, you do need to try them.

He doesn't know what he is missing.  These pickles are so good that their original packager is being sued alleging that the packager decided that the pickles were so good they stole the recipe from their client (Grillos) to become a pickle company (Parker) on their own.  

[Chip Cataldo]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:34 AM, Buzzetta said:

He doesn't know what he is missing.  These pickles are so good that their original packager is being sued alleging that the packager decided that the pickles were so good they stole the recipe from their client (Grillos) to become a pickle company (Parker) on their own.  

They're one of those foods that when you taste them you can't go back to the regular "big brands" ever again.

There needs to be a Water Cooler thread about pickles (or the "best tasting" brands of individual foods), methinks.

[Mr Sneeze]

 

On 11/24/2023 at 11:31 AM, VintageComics said:

Agreed. 

They won't kill the comics line because these 'incubators' as you so well put, create the food. They provide the seeds that fill the farm, but their goals changed once media expanded into a worldwide audience. 

The goal of the 'incubators' used to be to fill the farm and feed a family, or take the food to market to feed other families through a one market. 

The incubators no longer take the food to one market as the end goal, the incubators take the food to corporate distributors who feed entire countries through multiple markets, and they do that by artificially, digitally multiplying the food source and marketing it as being the same as the original, small family food source when the two are entirely different.

The quality of the food matters much less in the 2nd example, because the quantity of the food matters much more. 

You can't have both. They're diametrically opposed. 

--------------------------------------------

I made this point that I'm about to make below, many years ago:

What is happening is that ideological / philosophical paths are being exposed. There are two of them, they are wholly incompatible, and they diverged a long time ago. 

One path believes in working along strict, ideological, objective TRULY sustainable principles. This path never compromises on it's own principles because they are time proven. To put out quality, you need consistency in things like a code of behavior, and operating principles. Quality over profit plays a much longer game and is much more successful at longevity. This is how empires are built.

The other path believes it can make up the rules as they go along and tosses out objectivity for subjectivity, so it will absolutely cross it's own principles for profit every chance it gets. This path ALWAYS compromises on it's own principles for profit. It must, because if there is more profit, it must be searched out at the expense of anything else. The 'long game' on this path is really just a bunch of constant short games, being presented as an 'equal' long game through media manipulation, advertising, marketing, corporate espionage etc. JUST LIKE WE OUTLINED IN THIS THREAD. 

And we all know that in any equation, when there is one false premise, everything built on it will be incorrect. That's how corporate business works. 

-------------------------------

I always go back to the old world thinking in the automotive industry, which everyone can see and understand.

In the 1980's, corporate boardrooms hadn't het corrupted German manufacturers and they were still building cars that were supposed to last forever. 

America was already building cars in the new world way, using corporate driven board rooms that were sold as quality but were absolute junk.

What happened in the 90s, was as media exploded, the digital age began to commence, and the world became wildly aware of how big of a market there was, the American corporate boardroom invaded all economic systems and greed drove even the staunch German auto manufacturers to compromise their products. 

I was there. The mid to late 90's Benzs became the most problematic cars in their entire history. One single model, built in conjunction with the US had more recalls than all other models combined in their 100 year history. 

That is what is happening today everywhere. You're being fed junk, being convinced it isn't junk and most people have been dumbed down too far to be able to tell the difference. 

Time for consumers to wisen up.  

 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 11/24/2023 at 4:43 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

 

Or....

 

[CAHokie]

I recently discovered Grillo’s Pickles and they are delicious. A step above Aunt Bee’s Kerosene Cucumbers for sure. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:58 PM, CAHokie said:

I recently discovered Grillo’s Pickles and they are delicious. A step above Aunt Bee’s Kerosene Cucumbers for sure. 

I've watched enough Andy Griffith's to dread when that episode comes on, because they have scenes depicting eating the Kerosene pickles throughout the episode that it feels like I'm experiencing them to the death of me. Literally came on back to back weeks (and in the background) that it made me not want to check if there are Griffith shows I've not seen  even typing this is very cathartic! 

Then they buy more pickles to make Aunt Bee feel better  

Just wash my mouth out with soap already  

[CAHokie]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:13 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I've watched enough Andy Griffith's to dread when that episode comes on, because they have scenes depicting eating the Kerosene pickles throughout the episode that it feels like I'm experiencing them to the death of me. Literally came on back to back weeks (and in the background) that it made me not want to check if there are Griffith shows I've not seen  even typing this is very cathartic! 

Then they buy more pickles to make Aunt Bee feel better  

Just wash my mouth out with soap already  

“Shooo Fly…..He’s dead!” 
 

One of my top 5 episodes,  

[VintageComics]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:43 AM, Mr Sneeze said:

 

Condescension implies intent.

I sometimes have trouble condensing my thoughts (obviously, duh ), I get eager being ADHD and probably somewhat autistic, but I never intend to sound condescending. 

We have a very broad audience with varying levels of understanding and I just wanted to put it in crayon for people who may not understand where I'm coming from, which happens regularly on the internet. 

There are condescending people here in this very thread, and they've trolled me for years but I'm not one of them. My intent has ever, always been to learn, have fun and foster positive discourse and this thread is proof of how a conversation can be great and educational when people are not trying to cancel the conversation, get someone banned, bait them into difficult situations or just plan attack them to shame them like you're doing now. 

Condescending people shut conversations down. When is the last time someone saw me shut down a conversation?

Now when is the last time you saw someone try to shut me down? 

People have been trolling me for years trying to paint me for a dummy and they did it by trying to shut me up mid sentence all the time. I'm very thankful that Moderation is allowing longform conversation and moderating all the people who used just bring unproductive insults into the convo. 

You've been trolling me for a long time and Mike has already asked you stop. Now I'm asking you stop. 

Did you have something to add of value?

Edited November 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:40 AM, Chip Cataldo said:

There needs to be a Water Cooler thread about pickles (or the "best tasting" brands of individual foods), methinks.

Just kidding. I'm now going to have to try them. I happen to love pickles, and in my experience most Virgos do. Not scientific, but I have a large cross section of data to support it!

Now is there ANYONE who disagrees with what I posted today?

Edited November 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[CAHokie]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:44 PM, VintageComics said:

Just kidding. I'm now going to have to try them. I happen to love pickles, and in my experience most Virgos do. Not scientific, but I have a large cross section of data to support it!

Now is there ANYONE who disagrees with what I posted today?

Yes, every “sign” loves pickles, nothing special about Virgos!

[VintageComics]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:47 PM, CAHokie said:

Yes, every “sign” loves pickles, nothing special about Virgos!

I'll bet you a jar of pickles Virgos out number other signs when it comes to loving pickles.

[CAHokie]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:49 PM, VintageComics said:

I'll bet you a jar of pickles Virgos out number other signs when it comes to loving pickles.

I bet they outnumber others in loving nuts (or being one)!  

[Brock]

Ok, I’m losing track of this thread… is it bad movies or good pickles that are killing comic book stores in 2023?