COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[Buzzetta]

On 12/2/2023 at 12:34 PM, VintageComics said:

Remember when we used to be patient enough to wait 3 months so snail mail a check to a dealer for a comic we wanted and often would not even get the book we asked for?

What a far cry from just a few decades ago. 

One of the fundamental root problems to many industries is people no longer have patience to seek out the good things that wait on the other side of that patience. Like the delayed gratification of waiting for a next installment. It's actually a beautiful thing that many in upcoming generations will never experience. 

Instilling patience and delayed gratification in kids is just as important as making sure they're educated and mentally healthy. 

In fact, that sort of patience will ensure the rest falls into place.

That does not even come close to making sense. 

Let's roll back the clock decades ago when you and I were children.  I did not have a checkbook.  You did?   

Comics took longer to read than five to six minutes.

Over the last few decades, prices have gone up, page count and even dialogue have gone down as splashes seem to be favored over panel pages.  Even what qualifies as a panel page seems to have fewer panels on it compared to panel pages from decades ago as today's books have quite a few more quarter and half splashes.   The books from decades ago used to last at least 10-12 minutes.  Even today, pick up a 64 page Golden Age book and you will get a nice chunk of time to go through the book between comic stories and text pages. 

You want to bring in new readers?  Put the value into the experience.  Something that lasts 5-6 minutes is never going to be able to compete with something that can last hours.   Today's comics do not have enough of an experience to even hold on to which is why so many complain that they are forgettable. 

It's not about your "beliefs" instilling patience and delayed gratification, the value on most modern books is no longer there.   Again, why spend money on something that is now just a blip and not an experience?  

 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:13 AM, Buzzetta said:

That does not even come close to making sense. 

Let's roll back the clock decades ago when you and I were children.  I did not have a checkbook.  You did?   

Comics took longer to read than five to six minutes.

Over the last few decades, prices have gone up, page count and even dialogue have gone down as splashes seem to be favored over panel pages.  Even what qualifies as a panel page seems to have fewer panels on it compared to panel pages from decades ago as today's books have quite a few more quarter and half splashes.   The books from decades ago used to last at least 10-12 minutes.  Even today, pick up a 64 page Golden Age book and you will get a nice chunk of time to go through the book between comic stories and text pages. 

You want to bring in new readers?  Put the value into the experience.  Something that lasts 5-6 minutes is never going to be able to compete with something that can last hours.   Today's comics do not have enough of an experience to even hold on to which is why so many complain that they are forgettable. 

It's not about your "beliefs" instilling patience and delayed gratification, the value on most modern books is no longer there.   Again, why spend money on something that is now just a blip and not an experience?  

 

Yep. There have been plenty of great comics released over the last 20 years, but that doesn't make the print runs go up.

Floppies as a regular enjoyment for young people is seen as out of touch with how young people consume media today. The experience vs the price vs the format just doesn't add up. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

You want to bring in new readers?  Put the value into the experience.  Something that lasts 5-6 minutes is never going to be able to compete with something that can last hours.   Today's comics do not have enough of an experience to even hold on to which is why so many complain that they are forgettable.

Didn't Walmart have some 100 page comics from DC up near their registers a few years back? Any info on how those sold?

[Cat]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:40 AM, VintageComics said:

That was my fundamental point #2 which I posted a few weeks ago. 

Children are being socially programmed by social media to be impatient, seek instant gratification, and choose visuals over words. They're being deprogrammed and becoming illiterate in just 1-2 generations. Just looking at how they spell in texts and messages is a leading indicator. They can't spell properly, form proper grammar or even have proper conversations anymore. 

And everyone is wondering why they don't read comics?

A perfect social engineering parallel is comic collecting. Collecting has moved from collecting reading content to collecting covers only. 

For example, does anyone have any old OSPG handy? I don't. 

How did, say,  Detective #31 (classic cover) compare to #33 (origin story) 40 years ago?

30 years ago?

20 years ago?

Today?

We know today that #31 is a monster book that eclipses #33 in value now, but did it always eclipse #33? I'd guess and say that #33 was the more desirable book when people actually READ the book. Once reading became passe, #31 overtook it. 

In much the same way, young people are being DISCOURAGED from reading so all the content in the world won't matter if they don't want to, or worse CAN'T read. 

We are literally changing how we behave and act on a scale across ALL society, through social media. 

I'd say kids are never reading and writing more. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, VintageComics said:

We've discussed various aspects of why comic book stores are failing. 

I stand by the points that I've made that big corporate involvement through various avenues is adulterating the art form.

LOL. Exactly what I've been saying YOU'VE been saying. 

[VintageComics]

 

On 12/2/2023 at 1:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

On 12/2/2023 at 12:34 PM, VintageComics said:

Remember when we used to be patient enough to wait 3 months so snail mail a check to a dealer for a comic we wanted and often would not even get the book we asked for?

What a far cry from just a few decades ago. 

That does not even come close to making sense. 

Let's roll back the clock decades ago when you and I were children.  I did not have a checkbook.  You did?   

It sounds like you're calling me a liar, which seems to be a common theme these days. 

This is a refund I received from Simon and Schuster for overpaying when I purchased a box of Fireside books (Origins, Son of Origins, etc) back in 1977.

Does this make more sense to you now?

M'kay? Thanks. 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by VintageComics

[Cat]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:50 AM, VintageComics said:

Another great example of how much shorter our attention spans have gotten. Many new comics tend to be more geared toward visual porn than story telling. 

You and I don't enjoy reading those types of comics, but I believe Gen Y and Z do tend to. It's not really even reading, relatively speaking. It's more like 'reading along'.

In the words of Pauline Hanson "please explain". 

[CAHokie]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:18 PM, Cat said:

I'd say kids are never reading and writing more. 

For fun? Maybe in other countries but it is slightly declining in the US according to some studies. Of course all kids can’t be lumped in together. 

Scholastic

Pew Research

[Buzzetta]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:20 PM, VintageComics said:

 

It sounds like you're calling me a liar, which seems to be a common theme these days. 

This is a refund I received from Simon and Schuster for overpaying when I purchased a box of Fireside books (Origins, Son of Origins, etc) back in 1977.

Does this make more sense to you now?

M'kay? Thanks. 

 

I wrote, "Let's roll back the clock decades ago when you and I were children.  I did not have a checkbook.  You did?"

Looks like I wrote a question.   It even ends in a question mark.

BTW... Roy "Delk" ? 

 

[bc]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:16 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yep. There have been plenty of great comics released over the last 20 years, but that doesn't make the print runs go up.

Floppies as a regular enjoyment for young people is seen as out of touch with how young people consume media today. The experience vs the price vs the format just doesn't add up. 

I think its more than just young people....

Most of my adult friends wait to binge watch entire seasons of streaming shows - they don't tune in for every episode.

They jump between streaming providers every few months to binge popular series and take advantage of "introductory" offers.

I watch my grand daughters sit and scroll on their phones - if they were allowed, they'd do it all day long.

The "serial" style of monthly comic book publishing doesn't fit in with how media is consumed anymore.

-bc

[Cat]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:05 AM, CAHokie said:

For fun? Maybe in other countries but it is slightly declining in the US according to some studies. Of course all kids can’t be lumped in together. 

Scholastic

Pew Research

I meant in a wider sense, as that's how we communicate these days, but good info there. 

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:00 AM, VintageComics said:

There you go. 

Historically, IIRC classic covers did NOT sell for as much as "origin stories" pre internet. 

It was the advent of the internet - and CGC is definitely a product of the internet - that drove demand to a cover market and suppressed prices of origin stories. 

I remember chasing "origin stories" fervently as a kid. They were hot keys in the 70's and 80's (I stopped collecting in the 90's).

If an origin story was reprinted, everyone still wanted it. 

By the time the 2000s came around, covers began to overtake and now they are considered the ultimate collecting goal. 

I give you LB Cole covers as the perfect example.

Even 10 years ago you could purchase LB Cole covers for a few $100. I know because I bought a set of high grade LB Cole cover books and sold them here.

Now those same books are going for $1000's and $10,000s. 

Does ANYONE know which stories are in those LB Cole books? Likely not. 

The actual problem with origin issues, as I've mentioned before, is that origin stories of older characters have been endlessly reprinted, retold, and altered over the years. The first origin issue is nothing special anymore.

[Hamlet]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:48 PM, Lazyboy said:

The actual problem with origin issues, as I've mentioned before, is that origin stories of older characters have been endlessly reprinted, retold, and altered over the years. The first origin issue is nothing special anymore.

You could say the same thing about 1st appearances, but the market has gone in the opposite direction for those.

[Lightning55]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:20 PM, VintageComics said:

 

It sounds like you're calling me a liar, which seems to be a common theme these days. 

This is a refund I received from Simon and Schuster for overpaying when I purchased a box of Fireside books (Origins, Son of Origins, etc) back in 1977.

Does this make more sense to you now?

M'kay? Thanks. 

 

I'm curious as to how you have a color copy of a check from 1977. You took a color film photo back then (no digital cameras) or a color scan (were color scanners even available then)? Or you still have the check, never cashed it?

Not saying you don't have this, but I genuinely would like to know how. In any case, superb record keeping from 46 years ago.

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:24 PM, Lightning55 said:

I'm curious as to how you have a color copy of a check from 1977. You took a color film photo back then (no digital cameras) or a color scan (were color scanners even available then)? Or you still have the check, never cashed it?

Not saying you don't have this, but I genuinely would like to know how. In any case, superb record keeping from 46 years ago.

My mom always had great color cameras growing up and my own personal, childhood horror story is her loaning me a prized Nikon camera around 1980 or 1981 that I lost in Niagara Falls, Canada on a school trip. She still reminds me of it over 40 years later. 

But yeah, I still have the check in my possession. I never cashed it. 

The fact that someone would question a lifelong collector of 5 decades, like myself, about doing mail order pre internet days is about as ridiculous as it gets on these forums. We all did it. 

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:24 PM, Hamlet said:

You could say the same thing about 1st appearances, but the market has gone in the opposite direction for those.

An origin (that isn't in the same story as the first appearance) is just another story. There's only one first appearance (no, we aren't getting into brief/full here).

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:05 PM, CAHokie said:

For fun? Maybe in other countries but it is slightly declining in the US according to some studies. Of course all kids can’t be lumped in together. 

Scholastic

Pew Research

Thanks.

It's unequivocal. Kids read less than they used to. I can't believe anyone can even question that. Many kids these days don't even know how to type a sentence or speak in a conversation anymore. 

Why they read less is a different discussion but I've already covered that. 

If a kid has a choice between reading a book or watching a movie / playing a video game / another form of distraction like Instagram, they're going to choose the distraction over the book the majority of the time.

And I've already mentioned declining subscription numbers IN THIS THREAD. Nobody commented on them. Now all of a sudden everyone is interested in them.

I mentioned that comics used to be printed by the MILLIONS in the GA.

Then they went to being printed by the 100,000's in the SA and by the 10,000's in the BA. 

The better question is not whether subscription numbers are plummeting or not. Everyone knows they are.

The better question might be to ask which subscription numbers are staying higher than their peers within each era?

And WHY?

I know. Too complicated, but hey, what do I know?

[Lightning55]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:30 PM, VintageComics said:

My mom always had great color cameras growing up and my own personal, childhood horror story is her loaning me a prized Nikon camera around 1980 or 1981 that I lost in Niagara Falls, Canada on a school trip. She still reminds me of it over 40 years later. 

But yeah, I still have the check in my possession. I never cashed it. 

The fact that someone would question a lifelong collector of 5 decades, like myself, about doing mail order pre internet days is about as ridiculous as it gets on these forums. We all did it. 

After giving the possible scenarios some thought, I believed it was most likely that you still had the original check, since digital cameras were not available to consumers until about 1988.

But then I wondered, who doesn't cash a check? I know it's not a high dollar amount, but no one passes up free money. You must have had a premonition that you would need it in the future for this forum moment. 

I believe @Buzzetta thought you were both around the same age. Apparently not.

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, VintageComics said:

I mentioned that comics used to be printed by the MILLIONS in the GA.

 Only a very small percentage; the top sellers. The majority were definitely not.

There were also a bunch of comics printed over a million in the 1990s. So what?

On 12/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, VintageComics said:

Then they went to being printed by the 100,000's in the SA

They were already there.

On 12/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, VintageComics said:

and by the 10,000's in the BA. 

No.

On 12/2/2023 at 3:40 PM, VintageComics said:

And I've already mentioned declining subscription numbers IN THIS THREAD.

The better question is not whether subscription numbers are plummeting or not.

The better question might be to ask which subscription numbers are staying higher than their peers within each era?

Why are you talking about subscription numbers? Subscriptions have never been a big thing for comic books.

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:48 PM, Lazyboy said:

The actual problem with origin issues, as I've mentioned before, is that origin stories of older characters have been endlessly reprinted, retold, and altered over the years. The first origin issue is nothing special anymore.

Which age range are you in? Older or younger?

I'm over 50 so I remember pouring over the OSPG in the 70's and 80s and trying to find every origin story of every character. I did it because origin retellings were considered important collecting material, whether they were reprints or retellings.

No old school collector can deny this. 

This is why Overstreet broke Origin stories EVEN IF THEY WERE REPRINTS. 

Because collectors sought them out. 

They say a picture is worth 1000 words, so here we go (1974 Overstreet)

1974 

 

Superman Origin story broken out in issue #53.

Why break it out if it's so boring?

You'll notice they broke it out AGAIN in issue #61. 

 

 

Check out Strange Tales #115 (origin of Dr. Strange) and #135 (Origin of Nick Fury).

They were broken out even though they were the same price as surrounding issues. 

 

How about Detective Comics #31 vs #33?

Same thing. Broken out and #33 was more expensive than #31.