ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Buzzetta]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:32 AM, paqart said:

I'm waiting for eBay to get in on this. This problem is not limited to CGC. Ebay has a cause of action against CGC for negligence and against ZaneGlor (or whatever) for fraud.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 2:51 AM, Prince Namor said:

It's not going to happen like that at all. 

If eBay is smart they will maintain their indifference and distance.  If that avenue is travelled, it would lead to exploration of their liability in other incidents of potential fraud by the sellers it hosts and that would open a Pandora's box for eBay. 

[WernerVonDoom]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:29 AM, OJ Pimpson said:

CGC obviously knows the account associated with the fraud. The very first thing They need to do is release a list of every individual book this account has reholdered and offer to buy back all of them at FMV

Yep, If CGC handles this like the last major fraud scandal, they put out a list of every potentially affected book. Then, owners can send those books for review and if not legit, they refund in full.  However, the books this time are more more valuable, so it could get ugly.

[MyNameIsLegion]

I see lots of talk about how this guy is going to jail,  eBay, CGC, the USPS, FBI, the Canadian Mounties, MI6 all all mounting a joint investigation to take this guy down. 

umm, no. None of that will happen. Not even a remote possibility. The only "Fear" that briva3 has now that his current accounts are "outed" is he's thinking to himself  "dude what a major hassle" and he's not going to bank an easy 20-30k this month Now he has to set up a new eBay ID and CGC account possibly. 

and why is that? Well, if every single book that he sold was graded by CGC, slabbed and labeled by CGC, any inaccuracies in the grade are 100% not his responsibility. He didn't misrepresent the product, he provided pictures, it's a legit serial number from CGC. He didn't break a single law and did not violate any of eBay's terms of use, or Paypal, the USPS, or anyone else. 

Did he exploit the system to trick CGC in reholdering books? Probably. Did he swap out comics in the sealed slabs? Probably.  But CGC had the books in hand and they had every opportunity to catch on to the ruse. It's not materially different than them getting the grade "wrong" or mislabeling something, or not catching resto. Hey, the game is to "get away" with as much as possible to get the highest grade for that serial number (notice I didn't say comic, no one care about the comic itself, that ship has sailed, let's stop pretending)

IF and only IF he swapped out lesser graded comics from a slab he opened and swapped out a 9.8 with a 9.4, sealed it back up and sold that on eBay to someone for money, then and only then could it be construed as fraud. It would still be difficult to prove- as it's still subjective that a 9.4 in a 9.8 case is a smoking gun. Short of dusting for prints on the inner well, no one can tell.  Until they start putting serial numbers on the books themselves in infrared ink or something there's simply no way to verify the chain of custody of a book relative to what ever slabbed serial number. 

Whats more, it's not fentanyl, defective cruise control, or peanut butter tainted with salmonella. It's funny books. THE USDA, FDA, NTSB aren't regulating it. No law enforcement entity really cares are about such trivial stuff. Nobody died. Nobody is cheating on their taxes.

CGC at most will review their intake process, to make sure they aren't getting scammed. That's all. No redesign of holders, if they have a good price and a good supply they will not change a single solitary thing. Maybe they review their intake forms, and add some legal language that if you attempt to tamper with their product, they at their discretion can re-grade a books, cancel your account, strike a serial number form the registry, whatever. Basically dissuade petty fraud with some tepid warning or penalty that's baked into the terms of use. 

As for our enterprising briva3- well I'm sure he will be back under some other ID in a matter of weeks. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Mikey C]

The seller has also listed HUGE books for sale on Grailz so anything he sold there wouldn’t be captured by GPA. 

Also, on 10/23 he bought an ASM300 9.6 newsstand via Grailz so anything he buys on Instagram won’t have a paper trail either. This is insane. 

[sledgehammer]

How did this change on Ebay play out, where the seller changed his feedback to "private"?

Does Ebay review that in any way before it happens, when it was clearly an immediate reaction to that horrible last feedback that was put up this week?

I despised Ebay enough already, before this week.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:30 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I see lots of talk about how this guy is going to jail,  eBay, CGC, the USPS, FBI, the Canadian Mounties, MI6 all all mounting a joint investigation to take this guy down. 

umm, no. None of that will happen. Not even a remote possibility. The only "Fear" that briva3 has now that his current accounts are "outed" is he's thinking to himself  "dude what a major hassle" and he's not going to bank an easy 20-30k this month Now he has to set up a new eBay ID and CGC account possibly. 

and why is that? Well, if every single book that he sold was graded by CGC, slabbed and labeled by CGC, any inaccuracies in the grade are 100% not his responsibility. He didn't misrepresent the product, he provided pictures, it's a legit serial number from CGC. He didn't break a single law and did not violate any of eBay's terms of use, or Paypal, the USPS, or anyone else.

I don't follow your reasoning on "misrepresenting the product".

We don't know enough yet, as to whether or not some method of re- creating the actual way that CGC seals the holders is now being done.

If there turns out to be, then there is no way that you don't call that misrepresentation.

"This product that I'm selling, is a construct of my fraudulent activity"  Maybe?

Edited December 21, 2023 by sledgehammer

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:04 AM, sledgehammer said:

I don't follow your reasoning on "misrepresenting the product".

We don't know enough yet, as to whether or not some method of re- creating the actual way that CGC seals the holders is now being done.

If there turns out to be, then there is no way that you don't call that misrepresentation.

"This product that I'm selling, is a construct of my fraudulent activity"  Maybe?

If he lists a CGC Fartman #1 as a CGC graded 9.8 with photos and shipped them a CGC Graded 9.4. That's misrepresenting the product.  eBay wouldn't hesitate to refund that. 

If he lists a CGC 9.8 Fartman #1, shows a photo of it, and it is exactly that book that is shipped to the buyer, then he did not misrepresent anything from eBays perspective. Nada, zilch. IF CGC missed that it's a 9.4 inside that 9.8 holder is not his problem or liability. He didn't warrant that the grade was accurate or any such guarantee. He sold a thing in a slab with a label, he shipped the same thing in a slab with that label. Pretty black and white if you ask me. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:04 AM, sledgehammer said:

I don't follow your reasoning on "misrepresenting the product".

We don't know enough yet, as to whether or not some method of re- creating the actual way that CGC seals the holders is now being done.

If there turns out to be, then there is no way that you don't call that misrepresentation.

"This product that I'm selling, is a construct of my fraudulent activity"  Maybe?

Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment, the books with the new labels wouldn't need DIY sealing.  CGC is doing it for him.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:17 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment, the books with the new labels wouldn't need DIY sealing.  CGC is doing it for him.

No, I'm still not sure exactly what he is sending to CGC to be re holdered.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:17 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment, the books with the new labels wouldn't need DIY sealing.  CGC is doing it for him.

Precisely.

[darkstar]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:30 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I see lots of talk about how this guy is going to jail,  eBay, CGC, the USPS, FBI, the Canadian Mounties, MI6 all all mounting a joint investigation to take this guy down. 

umm, no. None of that will happen. Not even a remote possibility. The only "Fear" that briva3 has now that his current accounts are "outed" is he's thinking to himself  "dude what a major hassle" and he's not going to bank an easy 20-30k this month Now he has to set up a new eBay ID and CGC account possibly. 

and why is that? Well, if every single book that he sold was graded by CGC, slabbed and labeled by CGC, any inaccuracies in the grade are 100% not his responsibility. He didn't misrepresent the product, he provided pictures, it's a legit serial number from CGC. He didn't break a single law and did not violate any of eBay's terms of use, or Paypal, the USPS, or anyone else. 

Did he exploit the system to trick CGC in reholdering books? Probably. Did he swap out comics in the sealed slabs? Probably.  But CGC had the books in hand and they had every opportunity to catch on to the ruse. It's not materially different than them getting the grade "wrong" or mislabeling something, or not catching resto. Hey, the game is to "get away" with as much as possible to get the highest grade for that serial number (notice I didn't say comic, no one care about the comic itself, that ship has sailed, let's stop pretending)

IF and only IF he swapped out lesser graded comics from a slab he opened and swapped out a 9.8 with a 9.4, sealed it back up and sold that on eBay to someone for money, then and only then could it be construed as fraud. It would still be difficult to prove- as it's still subjective that a 9.4 in a 9.8 case is a smoking gun. Short of dusting for prints on the inner well, no one can tell.  Until they start putting serial numbers on the books themselves in infrared ink or something there's simply no way to verify the chain of custody of a book relative to what ever slabbed serial number. 

Whats more, it's not fentanyl, defective cruise control, or peanut butter tainted with salmonella. It's funny books. THE USDA, FDA, NTSB aren't regulating it. No law enforcement entity really cares are about such trivial stuff. Nobody died. Nobody is cheating on their taxes.

CGC at most will review their intake process, to make sure they aren't getting scammed. That's all. No redesign of holders, if they have a good price and a good supply they will not change a single solitary thing. Maybe they review their intake forms, and add some legal language that if you attempt to tamper with their product, they at their discretion can re-grade a books, cancel your account, strike a serial number form the registry, whatever. Basically dissuade petty fraud with some tepid warning or penalty that's baked into the terms of use. 

As for our enterprising briva3- well I'm sure he will be back under some other ID in a matter of weeks. 

 

Except it is fraud, CGC not catching it doesn't absolve him of his wrongdoing nor does it legitimize his criminal enterprise. Of course nothing will come of this because it doesn't rise to the level of concern to earn the attention of anyone that matters, but to suggest this isn't provable fraud is laughable.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:18 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm still not sure exactly what he is sending to CGC to be re holdered.

doesn't matter. Not really. What matter is what he SELLS is a genuine CGC slab that has not been altered or cracked and something other than what was certified by CGC with that serial number.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:18 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm still not sure exactly what he is sending to CGC to be re holdered.

Ok, got it.

You were referring to his submissions to CGC.

I thought you meant the books he was selling.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Sigur Ros

[darkstar]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:16 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

If he lists a CGC Fartman #1 as a CGC graded 9.8 with photos and shipped them a CGC Graded 9.4. That's misrepresenting the product.  eBay wouldn't hesitate to refund that. 

If he lists a CGC 9.8 Fartman #1, shows a photo of it, and it is exactly that book that is shipped to the buyer, then he did not misrepresent anything from eBays perspective. Nada, zilch. IF CGC missed that it's a 9.4 inside that 9.8 holder is not his problem or liability. He didn't warrant that the grade was accurate or any such guarantee. He sold a thing in a slab with a label, he shipped the same thing in a slab with that label. Pretty black and white if you ask me. 

Knowingly re-selling a blue label book that you bought previously as a green label qualified book due to a missing marvel value stamp is fraud. And if you've done it repeatedly no honest mistake defense is going to hold up. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:19 AM, darkstar said:

Except it is fraud, CGC not catching it doesn't absolve him of his wrongdoing nor does it legitimize his criminal enterprise. Of course nothing will come of this because it doesn't rise to the level of concern to earn the attention of anyone that matters, but to suggest this isn't provable fraud is laughable.

We're saying in the eyes of eBay it is perfectly legit.

The guy is selling sealed, untampered, guaranteed CGC slabs.

It's not their job to determine if everything sold on their site has a shady history to it.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:19 AM, darkstar said:

Except it is fraud, CGC not catching it doesn't absolve him of his wrongdoing nor does it legitimize his criminal enterprise. Of course nothing will come of this because it doesn't rise to the level of concern to earn the attention of anyone that matters, but to suggest this isn't provable fraud is laughable.

actually, CGC has unknowingly legitimized his alleged criminal enterprise. Again. where is the fraud? who is the injured party, and who is directly responsible for the injury? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I know the guy is scumbag, but he's possible a smart and successful one. If he cracked slabs and swapped out books and sold those directly to a person on any forum, THEN he has committed fraud that's pretty black and white. It's just difficult to prove it.

Edited December 21, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:24 AM, Sigur Ros said:

We're saying in the eyes of eBay it is perfectly legit.

The guy is selling sealed, untampered, guaranteed CGC slabs.

It's not their job to determine if everything sold on their site has a shady history to it.

thank you- you said it with an economy of words I clearly lack! 

[MyNameIsLegion]

this is getting juicy enough, it's time to phone a friend. @comix4fun can you parse this debate? I see criminal liabilities as questionable at best. Civil is a maybe, but who is liable and who is the injured party?

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:27 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

thank you- you said it with an economy of words I clearly lack! 

I'm a simple man.

I need things explained simply, so I try to do the same 😉

[Diane Sauer]

Someone found out about and exploited a flaw in the reholder process there is no need for anyone else to be involved. Very likely a job like cracking books out of the case is done by lower level or new employees as it is something that can be easily taught and accomplished. It is a mundane task and like all such tasks humans do they eventually get lazy playing little attention to the details even if examining the slab was part of the official process. It's just human nature. Now, if the person figured out about this flaw on their own or maybe is friends with someone who worked at cgc or at some point talked to someone that did who may have made a seeming harmless comment such as "I was cracking slabs open for my whole shift today, those new custom labels are hot!" is another matter.