ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[RonS2112]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:19 AM, darkstar said:

1) Because he swapped books

2) Because he did it more than once

Not arguing either.  But part of the CGC business case is that they are supposed to catch flaws and grade accordingly.  Missing a cut-out MVS in a Hulk 181 seems to be a big miss in accordance with that business case.  That's on CGC, not the scammer.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:19 AM, Artboy99 said:

CGC's flaw here is that they do not regrade the book when you submit for reholder. So what the scammer is doing is cracking the books out of the outer plastic, swapping the labels somehow and leaving the inner wells intact. Taking the labels out of the inner well sleeve was very easy, I have not cracked a book out in a while is it still easy to remove the label?

He submits the lower quality book back to CGC likely inside the damaged outer case.

To me the fix is either:

1. CGC must regrade all submissions even if it is simply because the outer case has been scuffed, scratched, damaged in anyway.

2. completely seal the label portion into the inner well (if they are not currently doing that)

Regrade required for any older model slabs that come back where the label tampering is possible.

The label is at the front of the new holder and the inner well is at the back.

I think your improvement idea would be perfect in a different style holder, even the first one's "depth".

Edited December 21, 2023 by sledgehammer

[godzilla43]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:19 PM, Artboy99 said:

1. CGC must regrade all submissions even if it is simply because the outer case has been scuffed, scratched, damaged in anyway.

Only this. Even thou I bet there would be cases where people would be whining about getting a lesser grade but if CGC writes that policy on their website on capital letters that every submission will be graded then I think it is okay.

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:40 AM, godzilla43 said:

Only this. Even thou I bet there would be cases where people would be whining about getting a lesser grade but if CGC writes that policy on their website on capital letters that every submission will be graded then I think it is okay.

Also essentially stopping the reholder service is the only way to completely close this loophole.  CGC would just say any book in a case with any apparent damage, or is being submitted for a new label or change to label information will be re-graded, and verified for authenticity of something like MJ. In addition all of these submissions will be assigned a new certificate number, and the old number removed from the registry.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:49 AM, drotto said:

Also essentially stopping the reholder service is the only way to completely close this loophole.  CGC would just say any book in a case with any apparent damage, or is being submitted for a new label or change to label information will be re-graded, and verified for authenticity of something like MJ. In addition all of these submissions will be assigned a new certificate number, and the old number removed from the registry.

if we aren't careful, CGC will turn this PR nightmare into a new revenue stream though it's not going to help turnaround times. 

[J Bill]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:49 AM, drotto said:

Also essentially stopping the reholder service is the only way to completely close this loophole.

I certainly wouldn't want to have any books waiting to get reholdered in Sarasota right now. I have to think they've done a complete lockdown at this point. This person could have other books in the queue there right now and CGC most definitely shouldn't be laundering his remaining product. But that presupposes they know who it is, which might not be the case at the immediate moment. So first step is for them to find out exactly who this is, pull out any comics they have in the waiting room, and then restart things back up. And if they figure out who it is, you have to think they could provide that information to the proper authorities or interested parties.

[sledgehammer]

 

On 12/21/2023 at 7:52 AM, J Bill said:

I certainly wouldn't want to have any books waiting to get reholdered in Sarasota right now. I have to think they've done a complete lockdown at this point. This person could have other books in the queue there right now and CGC most definitely shouldn't be laundering his remaining product. But that presupposes they know who it is, which might not be the case at the immediate moment. So first step is for them to find out exactly who this is, pull out any comics they have in the waiting room, and then restart things back up. And if they figure out who it is, you have to think they could provide that information to the proper authorities or interested parties.

They know enough. I've already documented that his prior sales are in the same submissions.

Whether or not he submitted them directly, or someone else did for him, is the remaining question.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:40 AM, godzilla43 said:

Only this. Even thou I bet there would be cases where people would be whining about getting a lesser grade but if CGC writes that policy on their website on capital letters that every submission will be graded then I think it is okay.

It goes beyond this. If CGC is re-grading all of the reholders it would involve opening up the inner sleeve, which takes time, and having graders assigned to those books. This would increase the wait times for regular grading and increase the cost of reholdering. 

[Cat]

I'm glad we have the green label Hulk 181 example to make it crystal clear to folk just how bad this guy is, and why he needs to be stopped. 

I don't expect to hear anything from CGC for quite some time, and even then just a simple "Okay" from Mike, and a new rule-change from up-high regarding reholders. 

Hopefully they're in crisis mode behind the scenes now, surely? 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:06 AM, Stefan_W said:

It goes beyond this. If CGC is re-grading all of the reholders it would involve opening up the inner sleeve, which takes time, and having graders assigned to those books. This would increase the wait times for regular grading and increase the cost of reholdering. 

I never doubted that the early style holders would need to have new inner sleeves, but if the new holders are the only ones where the inner sleeve weren't now being opened already, that limits the quantity a bit.

Edited December 21, 2023 by sledgehammer

[lostboys]

I hope CGC is able to stop this from happening in the future but I dont think CGC needs to do anything about what has already happened.

They should care what we think but this situation is tricky and I see them, most likely, hiding behind the old "grading is subjective" slogan.

 

 

 

CGC to anyone who asks: "Grading is subjective."

Scammer to anyone who asks: "Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me."

 

 

 

Both of these statements, in relation to this situation, may be lies... but lying doesnt seem to be a frowned upon much anymore.

Plausible deniability is all the rage.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by lostboys

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:06 AM, Stefan_W said:

It goes beyond this. If CGC is re-grading all of the reholders it would involve opening up the inner sleeve, which takes time, and having graders assigned to those books. This would increase the wait times for regular grading and increase the cost of reholdering. 

But, in light of this CGC, at least in the short term, may not have a choice. Look at it this way, if a Signature Series case is damaged severely or opened not in the presence of CGC, they will no longer honor the SS label, and will relabel the book as qualified.  Why, because they can no longer verify the signatures are real, by their rules. The same could easily apply to any damaged case.  Once a case has been altered in any way, they can no longer verify that the previous grading is valid. The fact that CGC has allowed re-holdering without regrading is exactly what is being exploited here. 

[godzilla43]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:11 PM, Cat said:

I'm glad we have the green label Hulk 181 example to make it crystal clear to folk just how bad this guy is, and why he needs to be stopped. 

Maybe there are other people also doing the same thing?!? I think that is more likely. 

[Cat]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:17 AM, godzilla43 said:

Maybe there are other people also doing the same thing?!? I think that is more likely. 

Good point. I hadn't considered that he wasn't the only scumbag doing this. 

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:18 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm still not sure exactly what he is sending to CGC to be re holdered.

for the following reasons as best as I can guess

1. whatever method he is using to swap books does some visible damage to the case

2. by preserving the inner well, he needs to at least submit the now swapped book for grading

3. he wants a valid registry number at CGC, and the information in the registry at least needs to look close to the original book in case a buyer is checking. This makes a buyer more confident to pay large some of money. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:21 AM, drotto said:

On 12/21/2023 at 6:18 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm still not sure exactly what he is sending to CGC to be re holdered.

for the following reasons as best as I can guess

1. whatever method he is using to swap books does some visible damage to the case

2. by preserving the inner well, he needs to at least submit the now swapped book for grading

3. he wants a valid registry number at CGC, and the information in the registry at least needs to look close to the original book in case a buyer is checking. This makes a buyer more confident to pay large some of money. 

Yea, that's not what I was saying. I'm saying that when it arrives at CGC, we still don't know why they didn't recognize that a new inner well was inside of an old slab.

Apparently, if it's not an inside job, it raised no red flags.

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:55 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

if that is the case, I'd like to read about exactly that played out, The devil is in the details. Your counterfeit analogy however is not at all an accurate comparison. the act of creating counterfeit currency itself, regardless of whether you pass it off or not is a federal crime. 

The simplest definition of fraud is any person who knowingly attempts to misrepresent an item or service with the hope of monetary gain. This guy is clearly doing that.  It does not matter if he is using  third party to do it or not.  It does not matter if he spends money in the process of doing that or not. Yes, you could argue that CGC is guilty of complacency as is Ebay, but they are not guilty of criminal intent. They may be guilty in a civil case for allowing the event to occur, because their services are supposed to protect against such acts, but not of fraud. 

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:26 AM, sledgehammer said:

Yea, that's not what I was saying. I'm saying that when it arrives at CGC, we still don't know why they didn't recognize that a new inner well was inside of an old slab.

Apparently, if it's not an inside job, it raised no red flags.

Sorry was just trying to clarify. 

[Artboy99]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:17 AM, godzilla43 said:

Maybe there are other people also doing the same thing?!? I think that is more likely. 

correct, I am sure this has been going on for over a decade.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:26 AM, sledgehammer said:

Yea, that's not what I was saying. I'm saying that when it arrives at CGC, we still don't know why they didn't recognize that a new inner well was inside of an old slab.

Apparently, if it's not an inside job, it raised no red flags.

I don't know what he was doing for sure but it's a lot easier to crack just enough to swap labels.  

In other words, maybe the inner well never leaves the case.

A small crack to slide a label in and out of may be less obvious than a crack to slide a book in and out of.