ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:12 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I"m not condoning any of the scenarios I detailed where the buyer is deceived into believing that the book matched the grade on the slab. It's patently unethical  Heck, I'm squeamish about pressing really being permanent, and the book reverting to a lesser grade after the fact. I was arguing if each scenario was technically fraud. The lawyers here have weighed in that it is- as have you. 

Fair enough.

[skybolt]

I have been collecting CGC graded books for over 20 years now and have always felt CGC gives preferential treatment (or at minimum turns a blind eye) towards big money submitters. Over the years there have been several instances where a lot of collectors were scratching their heads as to some decisions made by CGC.

A couple of examples that come to mind are 1.) CGC giving out high grades to the Dave Crippin pedigree books 15+ years ago because they were submitted by Heritage comics. A lot of these golden age books had awful foxing on the front and back covers, but still received 9.2/9.4 grades. In contrast, I would submit a book with a very minor stain on the back cover and get a 6.0 (I know it's all subjective, but still).

Another fraud case I remember from 2004/2005 was the whole Jason Ewert issue where he was trimming high valued books, aging the edges and then getting high grades from CGC. Once $&%^ hit the fan, CGC banned him and told him to leave the hobby, or else have a lawsuit brought up against him. There was a Washington lawyer (who was also a high end comic book collector) who wanted to help prosecute him, but I think at the end it didn't work out for whatever reason. What is interesting about this case is that CGC forum members started tracking serial numbers of additional books in the same submissions of books proven to be trimmed. What they found out was that CGC actually gave the guy a purple label for trimming 5 or 6 books in the same submission, but missed some other books that appeared to have also been trimmed (based on older scans). 

This brings me back to my original point where CGC cannot automatically trust long-term customers / dealers with deep pockets if they smell something fishy. They should hire an auditor type person whom graders can go to if someone is constantly calling and complaining about a Mark Jeweler designations being missed or if they can clearly tell that 5 books out of a submission have been trimmed, but turn a blind eye towards other ones that supposedly pass the smell test. I can also tell from past experience is that CGC will likely not release any info on all the books that have been submitted by this guy via the reholdering process and will only try and remedy the situation on books proven to be swapped by the average collector.

I can totally see this ASM #252 guy calling CGC and complaining about missing designations and CGC automatically remedying the issue (without performing an investigation) because he's a high valued customer. He probably called and said "what the heck is going on here, I'm spending tens of thousands of dollars grading books and you guys can't get the Mark Jeweler designation correct on my books"? CGC customer service likely pushed this complaint quickly through the door to appease this customer.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:29 AM, ThothAmon said:

I’ve been buying comics since the mid seventies

My earliest recollection of buying new comics with purpose is 1975. I was 5 years old and ran to the store without my parent's permission to buy a bunch of Batman comics with a $1 bill I found. 

[uncannyjames]

Think of the times you saw a CGC 9.8 book and thought it was a "gift grade" and should have been graded a 9.2 to 9.4. This fraud calls into question those "gift grades". Maybe it was never a gift grade; maybe it was a different book in a 9.8 case. 🤔

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:27 PM, paqart said:

This could be used to pursue fraud charges against CGC. Not because they knew this was going on, they likely didn't. The reason is that they had to know they weren't performing a secondary check of reholdering comics, and that invalidates their guarantee. That much, they had to know. I don't see a way around it.

I don't think CGC committed fraud, but I do think they were negligent and responsible for restitution.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:27 AM, paqart said:

I'm not sure how that would play out. If CGC was any other kind of company, it would be possible to say CGC was "defrauded" in the sense that they were involuntarily induced to become party to a crime through deception. Literally, that seems to be what happened. However, because they are a "guarantee" company, whose sole mission is to certify authenticity and grade, it is much more difficult to claim innocence even if they are innocent. The reason is that they are claiming that each item graded by them is carefully examined to ensure grade and authenticity. That could not have happened in the present circumstance.

The only way CGC can be fooled by the fraudster is if they are not performing the service they say they are performing. The distinction between "grading" and "reholdering" doesn't fly here. At least, I don't think it does, because reholdering without checking grade and authenticity means they cannot guarantee the comic that goes into the new holder. Ergo, they aren't performing the service they are paid to perform. More than that, by not performing the service in these limited situations, the value of all legitimately graded slabs is called into question. 

This could be used to pursue fraud charges against CGC. Not because they knew this was going on, they likely didn't. The reason is that they had to know they weren't performing a secondary check of reholdering comics, and that invalidates their guarantee. That much, they had to know. I don't see a way around it.

I agree with all of this- it pretty much lays out CGC's conundrum in doing anything at all legally, or want to even be involved in any legal proceeding. There's no upside, it's all bad.

[ThothAmon]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:35 AM, mephistopheles said:

I don't think CGC committed fraud, but I do think they were negligent and responsible for restitution.

Does anyone really think CGC hasn’t caught this type of switch before that wasn’t as artfully done? I’d be shocked if he was the first guy to think of it. The mark jewelers wrinkle is probably novel but I’d imagine many rocket scientist had thought of this before. Think marrying folio’s and the like. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by ThothAmon

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:35 AM, mephistopheles said:

I don't think CGC committed fraud, but I do think they were negligent and responsible for restitution.

I don't think they knowingly committed fraud related to counterfeiting. I do think an argument can be made that the guarantee is invalid, and they should know it, because they don't examine reholdered comics to ensure they haven't been swapped. Ergo, they aren't performing the service they say they are performing. You may think it doesn't matter, because they are performing the service for most comics. However, by not performing the same service on some, they invalidate grades on the rest.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:31 AM, skybolt said:

I have been collecting CGC graded books for over 20 years now and have always felt CGC gives preferential treatment (or at minimum turns a blind eye) towards big money submitters. Over the years there have been several instances where a lot of collectors were scratching their heads as to some decisions made by CGC.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 11:34 AM, uncannyjames said:

Think of the times you saw a CGC 9.8 book and thought it was a "gift grade" and should have been graded a 9.2 to 9.4. This fraud calls into question those "gift grades". Maybe it was never a gift grade; maybe it was a different book in a 9.8 case. 🤔

As someone who has gone from being a small time submitter to a large time submitter, I can say that undergrading and overgrading always happens in BOTH directions. You just don't hear about it much on here, but in the background a lot of dealers discuss these things amongst ourselves.

Buyers complain about the overgrades.

Sellers complain about the undergrades.  

On 12/21/2023 at 11:31 AM, skybolt said:

A couple of examples that come to mind are 1.) CGC giving out high grades to the Dave Crippin pedigree books 15+ years ago because they were submitted by Heritage comics.

That seems to happen to a lot of large collections (Lost Valley, Promise, Church) where the books sometimes seem to get favorable grades. Maybe there is a Ped bump? Maybe the graders are just geeks excited at seeing a new collection with rare books and they're more favorable toward them?

I have a hard time accepting that some submitters get favorable grades over others, because if this was happening, you'd hear about various huge submitters calling each other out for it, and I personally have never heard such a story and I don't think anybody else has, either. 

Heck, if anyone has been submitting for more than a few years, you'll all remember back when we could get grading notes for books before the books were shipped and WE ALL used to call and complain but complaining got me nowhere. 

I used to think some submitters had favor with CGC and even accused CGC directly of doing it but I've learned it's all just luck of the draw and time / place. You have good days and bad days just like everything else in life. 

CGC's main service is their impartiality and if that collapses, the hobby is done like a tinderbox because all the money that built it will dissolve, so the IMPARTIALITY is what needs to be guarded above all else. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[mephistopheles]

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by mephistopheles

[MAR1979]

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MAR1979

[D2]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:56 AM, mephistopheles said:

True. 
 

But resale ease and value is most important. CGC grade books are easier to sell than raws

[trademarkcomics]

The silence is deafening...

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:30 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I see lots of talk about how this guy is going to jail,  eBay, CGC, the USPS, FBI, the Canadian Mounties, MI6 all all mounting a joint investigation to take this guy down. 

umm, no. None of that will happen. Not even a remote possibility. The only "Fear" that briva3 has now that his current accounts are "outed" is he's thinking to himself  "dude what a major hassle" and he's not going to bank an easy 20-30k this month Now he has to set up a new eBay ID and CGC account possibly. 

and why is that? Well, if every single book that he sold was graded by CGC, slabbed and labeled by CGC, any inaccuracies in the grade are 100% not his responsibility. He didn't misrepresent the product, he provided pictures, it's a legit serial number from CGC. He didn't break a single law and did not violate any of eBay's terms of use, or Paypal, the USPS, or anyone else. 

Did he exploit the system to trick CGC in reholdering books? Probably. Did he swap out comics in the sealed slabs? Probably.  But CGC had the books in hand and they had every opportunity to catch on to the ruse. It's not materially different than them getting the grade "wrong" or mislabeling something, or not catching resto. Hey, the game is to "get away" with as much as possible to get the highest grade for that serial number (notice I didn't say comic, no one care about the comic itself, that ship has sailed, let's stop pretending)

IF and only IF he swapped out lesser graded comics from a slab he opened and swapped out a 9.8 with a 9.4, sealed it back up and sold that on eBay to someone for money, then and only then could it be construed as fraud. It would still be difficult to prove- as it's still subjective that a 9.4 in a 9.8 case is a smoking gun. Short of dusting for prints on the inner well, no one can tell.  Until they start putting serial numbers on the books themselves in infrared ink or something there's simply no way to verify the chain of custody of a book relative to what ever slabbed serial number. 

Whats more, it's not fentanyl, defective cruise control, or peanut butter tainted with salmonella. It's funny books. THE USDA, FDA, NTSB aren't regulating it. No law enforcement entity really cares are about such trivial stuff. Nobody died. Nobody is cheating on their taxes.

CGC at most will review their intake process, to make sure they aren't getting scammed. That's all. No redesign of holders, if they have a good price and a good supply they will not change a single solitary thing. Maybe they review their intake forms, and add some legal language that if you attempt to tamper with their product, they at their discretion can re-grade a books, cancel your account, strike a serial number form the registry, whatever. Basically dissuade petty fraud with some tepid warning or penalty that's baked into the terms of use. 

As for our enterprising briva3- well I'm sure he will be back under some other ID in a matter of weeks. 

 

Bingo!

The responsible party at fault here is CGC

they had the opportunity to catch all of these and failed each and everytime

[Changer]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:40 AM, VintageComics said:

@Changer They've already confirmed that they are using 'some AI' but not for grading. AI is still too primitive for that and will never be able to replace a human eye IMO.

@Lightning55 How can you confirm they've always had scans? I don't know if this is true, because adding scans to your order used to delay your order regularly whereas not scanning your order expedited it. 

Pretty sure that radiologists are being replaced by automation,  checking against a prior scan is very doable. Grading …maybe only as a check,but  it would be consistent 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Changer

[Changer]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:09 AM, jsilverjanet said:

Bingo!

The responsible party at fault here is CGC

they had the opportunity to catch all of these and failed each and everytime

Agreed although if his real name and face show up, it would spread like wildfire, them he will have to use someone else as a cover when submitting to Cgc and dealing with people 

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:11 PM, Changer said:

Pretty sure that radiologists are being replaced by automation,  checking against a prior scan is very doable. 

I can see AI being used to prevent, or at least catch or highlight fraud in the future. 

I can't see it EVER replacing graders. There's too much involved with grading a 3 dimensional object like a book with many pages for just a program to do on it's own. 

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:19 AM, Artboy99 said:

CGC's flaw here is that they do not regrade the book when you submit for reholder. So what the scammer is doing is cracking the books out of the outer plastic, swapping the labels somehow and leaving the inner wells intact. Taking the labels out of the inner well sleeve was very easy, I have not cracked a book out in a while is it still easy to remove the label?

He submits the lower quality book back to CGC likely inside the damaged outer case.

To me the fix is either:

1. CGC must regrade all submissions even if it is simply because the outer case has been scuffed, scratched, damaged in anyway.

2. completely seal the label portion into the inner well (if they are not currently doing that)

Regrade required for any older model slabs that come back where the label tampering is possible.

the only problem I see with this, is that if the grade goes down, who's responsible for that? the case has been known to cause damage, CGC ready to pay up for that?

I think it needs to be more like if the book is not the same (and maybe that's why they started scanning the books to begin with) then we will regrade on the submitters dime and some disclaimer that grades going up down will be final etc (I'm not a lawyer or watch law shows so someone else can write that part)

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:36 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I agree with all of this- it pretty much lays out CGC's conundrum in doing anything at all legally, or want to even be involved in any legal proceeding. There's no upside, it's all bad.

The other issue is by name, business, and actions, CGC is presenting themselves as experts in grading. Under the law an expert is held to a higher standard, because they have additional expertise that in theory should avoid the error. Therefor they may be liable when a layperson is not.

[Changer]

If I was one of those conned for big $, would be calling a lawyer. Seems like proof is coming out day by day of negligence at best. A settlement is in order , maybe concern is why it’s officially quiet 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Changer