ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Bo1983]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:36 PM, Buzzetta said:

The debate seems to rest on what is entered into the computer versus what is actually processed... 

I think... 

The Hulk 181 9.0 is clearly the same book as the 8.5 missing the value stamp cause the scans are on cgc for both slabs! 4265040003 and 4283015003

Edited December 24, 2023 by Bo1983

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, paqart said:

I'm missing something here. How does the $4,995 sale for the MJI/9.8 version happen before the $1,450 sale for the 9.2/MJI?

I'm picturing something like this:

Step 1 or 2) Buy "SLAB" (this is the 9.8 slab, with comic)
Step 1 or 2) Buy "INFERIOR" (this is the low grade comic)
Step 3) Swap INFERIOR into SLAB, making "FAKE"
Step 4) Get FAKE graded (must have latest graded date)
Step 5) Sell FAKE (must have latest sale date)

So how is the ASM INFERIOR graded and sold after the FAKE?

If I’m following along correctly, I don’t think the 9.8 Mj version has sold yet.   Just the 9.8 newsstand version.  
 

GPA doesn’t show any sales of a 9.8 MJ insert of ASM 194
 

@comicwiz

Edited December 24, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:36 PM, Buzzetta said:

The debate seems to rest on what is entered into the computer versus what is actually processed... 

I think... 

Correct or an inside person doing various sundry and possibly haphazard manipulations...

 

Folks the single most important thing to recognize is that all the Gold Key/Western Comics in my current signature were submitted by me. To avoid them ever from falling into the hands of scammer. When the sad time comes they will all be cremated with me. Rest assured folks there will be no switcheroos with my Little Stooges books.

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[migmtl76]

Now every ASM 252 CGC 9.8 looks suspicious to me... currently on eBay (see pics).

I guess buy the book not the grade applies all to well here.

That couldn't possibly be a swiped book.

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:33 AM, paqart said:

I'm missing something here. How does the $4,995 sale for the MJI/9.8 version happen before the $1,450 sale for the 9.2/MJI?

I'm picturing something like this:

Step 1 or 2) Buy "SLAB" (this is the 9.8 slab, with comic)
Step 1 or 2) Buy "INFERIOR" (this is the low grade comic)
Step 3) Swap INFERIOR into SLAB, making "FAKE"
Step 4) Get FAKE graded (must have latest graded date)
Step 5) Sell FAKE (must have latest sale date)

So how is the ASM INFERIOR graded and sold after the FAKE?

The pictures used for the sale of the original 9.8 newsstand, we're old, prior to the Reholder of the inferior. He sold the comic to himself. A common practice that's been uncovered with this guy going back a decade. In fact, the $15,700 mark jeweler sale of that ASM252 That kicked off all the scrutiny, could very well have been fake as well, sold to himself. We don't know.

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, migmtl76 said:

Now every ASM 252 CGC 9.8 looks suspicious to me... currently on eBay (see pics).

I guess buy the book not the grade applies all to well here.

That couldn't possibly be a swiped book.

It's a 9.4 at absolute best.

Certain books attract a certain "uneducated" in Comics crowd. Precisely the rubes the scammers target.

[paqart]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:29 PM, Buzzetta said:

Again Roy, no one "laughed".  There is no need for the dramatic. 

Previously it was mentioned for eBay to file suit against CGC.  eBay would never do that.   It opens a pandora's box for eBay that is not worth the ensuing legal trouble or burden it places upon them.  If eBay claimed that they were damaged because of someone else's inferior product t then allows for eBay to assume liability for all of their listings which they are not going to ever take up.  Despite their seller and buyer rules, they are not escrow.  As of now they perform a service to make the buyer whole if the product is not as described or claimed but they do not pursue action further than the extent of banning a user if there is a repeated demonstration of fraudulent activities. 

Let's say you want to file suit against eBay for selling fraudulent materials across their system.  Since the previous case filed in Europe they have tightened up the language both there and here to release them of responsibility of whether or not an item is "fake" or not.  

 

This has nothing to do with suing eBay for anything. EBay guarantees sales. If a customer demands a refund due to fraud, and eBay or eBay's insurance company has to pay for it, they are now the victim. If it's an insurance company, then the insurance company will go after CGC for the money no matter what eBay wants. If eBay paid out of pocket, they could let it go, but that doesn't change the fact they have a legitimate cause of action.

[migmtl76]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:51 PM, MAR1979 said:

It's a 9.4 at absolute best.

Certain books attract a certain "uneducated" in Comics crowd. Precisely the rubes the scammers target.

It would be possible to track that specific flaw in the sold books on Go collect on a lesser graded book for sure.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:52 PM, paqart said:

This has nothing to do with suing eBay for anything. EBay guarantees sales. If a customer demands a refund due to fraud, and eBay or eBay's insurance company has to pay for it, they are now the victim. If it's an insurance company, then the insurance company will go after CGC for the money no matter what eBay wants. If eBay paid out of pocket, they could let it go, but that doesn't change the fact they have a legitimate cause of action.

They do not.

Let's see how it plays out.  I am extremely comfortable with my position here.  

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:49 PM, agamoto said:

The pictures used for the sale of the original 9.8 newsstand, we're old, prior to the Reholder of the inferior. He sold the comic to himself. A common practice that's been uncovered with this guy going back a decade. In fact, the $15,700 mark jeweler sale of that ASM252 That kicked off all the scrutiny, could very well have been fake as well, sold to himself. We don't know.

That brings up an interesting question

@ThothAmon is it a crime, that you know of, if ultimately you sell a fraudulent item to yourself?

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:53 PM, MAR1979 said:

That brings up an interesting question

@ThothAmon is it a crime that you know of if ultimately you sell a fraudulent item to yourself?

 

The seller is going to get busted for defrauding himself 

[Bo1983]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:59 AM, migmtl76 said:

The scammer had about 10 specific books he targeted, that FF4 is an outlier.

 

That is true but how many more people out there are like this dummy?

[paqart]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:53 PM, MAR1979 said:

That brings up an interesting question

@ThothAmon is it a crime, that you know of, if ultimately you sell a fraudulent item to yourself?

 

Pardon me for butting in, but in this case, it doesn't matter if the scammer bought it for himself. By offering it for public sale, he created the hazard of financial injury to someone else. That, I think, is a crime on its own. For instance, something you see in the world of fine art sometimes, is the withdrawal of paintings from auctions prior to the auction because the painting is discovered to be fake. If they don't discover the fake, the auction proceeds, and the seller knows it is fake, though bids as a shill, he is creating the possibility of a genuine sale to someone else.

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:53 AM, MAR1979 said:

That brings up an interesting question

@ThothAmon is it a crime that you know of if ultimately you sell a fraudulent item to yourself?

 

Technically, auctioneers in most states are allowed to shill bid, even the big boys like Heritage. eBay is a little different because they have TOS that disallows it on the site. So legally speaking, it's possible, i believe if the seller has an auctioneers license, they might be able to argue they have the right to shill bid, but then they still run adrift of ebay's terms of service anyway and should be booted for it.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, migmtl76 said:

Now every ASM 252 CGC 9.8 looks suspicious to me... currently on eBay (see pics).

I guess buy the book not the grade applies all to well here.

That couldn't possibly be a swiped book.

 

 

Me too, and this is one of the ripple effects that worry me. I have five ASM 252s in a submission that is currently SFG and three of those copies were from crack and resubs. I fixed them all up and made each copy look a lot better. 

I do crack and resubs because it is fun and I get a charge out of making books I love look better. If I get a 9.8 on any of them it is a victory, but now if I get a 9.8 I may not be able to get FMV or even be able to sell it easily if it comes to a point where I decide to move on from the book. This is the specific reason why I am hoping that, at some point, there will be an official release of slab numbers that are suspicious (i.e., those submitted by this fraudster). I dont see this happening though so I am already bracing for another hit to value to go along with the one that is already happening in the post-comic boom era. 

TL;DR - Even people who have not bought fraudulent books may still feel the impacts of all of this. 

[Bo1983]

Let’s not forget about the Hulk 181 9.0 that is clearly a previous 8.5 qualified!

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:00 AM, Bo1983 said:

Let’s not forget about the Hulk 181 9.0 that is clearly a previous 8.5 qualified!

Brute_nm will never let us forget!

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, migmtl76 said:

Now every ASM 252 CGC 9.8 looks suspicious to me... currently on eBay (see pics).

I guess buy the book not the grade applies all to well here.

That couldn't possibly be a swiped book.

Judging by the ebay seller name, they may have glasses for U that while wearing will avoid being able to see this nasty ding.

[comicwiz]

Not directed at anyone, to make anyone feel little, or wrong or incorrect. Just a general statement based on my experiences with reporting transgressions in the past.

feeBay doesn't care. CGC might because of the optics, but there's a likelihood this gets categorized as too stealth for them to procedurally detect reliably, or without frustrating/delaying their current modes of process. I hope I'm wrong, and they take this seriously.

Remedies. I've tried (with mixed results) going the route of reporting fraud by deception through the Office of the Inspector General, and the FTC. I will need to better understand how this all shakes out, and I will say it is going to hurt our ability to get resources on something like this because we aren't the impacted victims here reporting this, although it's reasonable that we assert the position that it's happening in such a stealth manner that it's impossible for the consumer to even understand the nature of the deception, and the down-the-line impacts inevitably hurt us all, in terms of jeopardizing consumer confidence and the overall health of the hobby. 

After I've had a run through of what I hope to do in the coming week, I'm hoping to check back here to see what's developed. However it likely will need to be repackaged for easier, more cogent anaylis by examiners, and I think it will only help if we continue to make more finds, because the scale of this will always be looked at from the monetary damage component to justify the use of any oversight agencies time and resources.

What I'm seeing as the benefit of going in this direction is to put pressure on all involved to recognize the severity of this, and at the very least to hopefully enforce corrective remedies like taking these slabs out of circulation.

[Buzzetta]

@paqart

I want to add, would it be nice if eBay could be held liable pushing them to go after a company like CGC under the terms you suggest?  Sure.  It would add an extra layer of protection for the buyer. 

However, I truly do not believe the foundation is there.