ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:00 PM, Stefan_W said:

Me too, and this is one of the ripple effects that worry me. I have five ASM 252s in a submission that is currently SFG and three of those copies were from crack and resubs. I fixed them all up and made each copy look a lot better. 

I do crack and resubs because it is fun and I get a charge out of making books I love look better. If I get a 9.8 on any of them it is a victory, but now if I get a 9.8 I may not be able to get FMV or even be able to sell it easily if it comes to a point where I decide to move on from the book. This is the specific reason why I am hoping that, at some point, there will be an official release of slab numbers that are suspicious (i.e., those submitted by this fraudster). I dont see this happening though so I am already bracing for another hit to value to go along with the one that is already happening in the post-comic boom era. 

TL;DR - Even people who have not bought fraudulent books may still feel the impacts of all of this. 

A CGC re-verification submission offering at same cost as regular subs. CGC win$ again

eBay could enact same Verification Program as they do Trading Cards but that will only push the bad actors elsewhere.

Stefan, seem you'll need to stay away from the common books used in the scam.  IMHO the Day of DC Digests has now arrived 

 

[Buzzetta]

Anyways... off to start cooking.   I will check in every now and then in between "jobs".

 

If not, Merry Christmas. 

Maybe we all start posting meals and things in a separate thread.  Would love to see what everyone else is making. 

[namisgr]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, migmtl76 said:

Now every ASM 252 CGC 9.8 looks suspicious to me... currently on eBay (see pics).

I guess buy the book not the grade applies all to well here.

That couldn't possibly be a swiped book.

 

I'd be much more concerned about the seller's horrendous e-bay feedback, and would never buy from such a seller no matter how great of an apparent deal was being offered.

[MisterMR]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:00 AM, Stefan_W said:

Me too, and this is one of the ripple effects that worry me. I have five ASM 252s in a submission that is currently SFG and three of those copies were from crack and resubs. I fixed them all up and made each copy look a lot better. 

I do crack and resubs because it is fun and I get a charge out of making books I love look better. If I get a 9.8 on any of them it is a victory, but now if I get a 9.8 I may not be able to get FMV or even be able to sell it easily if it comes to a point where I decide to move on from the book. This is the specific reason why I am hoping that, at some point, there will be an official release of slab numbers that are suspicious (i.e., those submitted by this fraudster). I dont see this happening though so I am already bracing for another hit to value to go along with the one that is already happening in the post-comic boom era. 

TL;DR - Even people who have not bought fraudulent books may still feel the impacts of all of this. 

This. ASM 252 9.8 was on my “will eventually buy” list and right now I wouldn’t go anywhere near it. And it’s not just that book. I’m extremely cautious pulling the trigger on anything because the lack of response from CGC makes me question how deep all of this goes. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:10 PM, namisgr said:

I'd be much more concerned about the seller's horrendous e-bay feedback, and would never buy from such a seller no matter how great of an apparent deal was being offered.

Sadly I know many people who think that's good rating

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:37 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

If I’m following along correctly, I don’t think the 9.8 Mj version has sold yet.   Just the 9.8 newsstand version.  
 

GPA doesn’t show any sales of a 9.8 MJ insert of ASM 194
 

@comicwiz

@sledgehammer stated the possibility the reholder on the 9.8 maintained the original grade date, confusing the chronology. I'm keeping my mind open on potential tampering being involved in the mix, as well as some space for spiked eggnog and cocktails to give the head spinning more familiar company.

[MAR1979]

redacted - off topic

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[paqart]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:08 PM, Buzzetta said:

@paqart

I want to add, would it be nice if eBay could be held liable pushing them to go after a company like CGC under the terms you suggest?  Sure.  It would add an extra layer of protection for the buyer. 

However, I truly do not believe the foundation is there. 

EBay isn't liable for anything beyond a refund to the buyer because of their guaranty. That guaranty doesn't assign or admit fault, nor should it. As far as I can tell, eBay hasn't done anything wrong. However, they could be left holding the bag for damages. I have received a refund like that before, but think it was extracted from the seller through eBay. Something along the lines of, "you can voluntarily refund the buyer's money, or we'll do it and withhold the same amount plus a fee from your other sales."

I have a hard time believing eBay has a fund for refunds. It makes more sense they use insurance. If that is true, eBay's opinion is irrelevant. Insurance companies make money by paying off claims, then recovering the damages from whomever they can identify in the chain of responsibility. In this case, we're looking at around $100k or more in known damages, so it is worth the trouble to run this down.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:38 AM, MAR1979 said:

When the sad time comes they will all be cremated with me

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:17 PM, comicwiz said:

@sledgehammer stated the possibility the reholder on the 9.8 maintained the original grade date, confusing the chronology. I'm keeping my mind open on potential tampering being involved in the mix, as well as some space for spiked eggnog and cocktails to give the head spinning more familiar company.

My understanding is that a 9.8 newsstand was swapped with this 9.2 MJ creating the 9.8 MJ, but this latest creation hasn’t hit the market yet.

@sledgehammer

[universal soldier]

Good lord, 111 pages. Is there a cliffnotes version anywhere? I will watch the video at some point after Christmas.

[Nick Furious]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:15 PM, MisterMR said:

This. ASM 252 9.8 was on my “will eventually buy” list and right now I wouldn’t go anywhere near it. And it’s not just that book. I’m extremely cautious pulling the trigger on anything because the lack of response from CGC makes me question how deep all of this goes. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like a good time to revisit this question I've always had:  What is it about a 9.4 or 9.6 of this book that makes it so much less acceptable to so many people?  Is it actually the appearance of the book?  Or is more that the ease of obtaining it in those grades limits the desirability?  Or maybe something else altogether?  

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:30 PM, universal soldier said:

Good lord, 111 pages. Is there a cliffnotes version anywhere? I will watch the video at some point after Christmas.

The early pages at the start of the thread have the summary of what happened. I would recommend skimming through those to get a sense of what is going on. After that the main points are expanding how wide this is and adding new books from the seller that are suspicious. The thread is basically more dilute as it goes on so you can skim more quickly as you go or else leave out big chunks of the middle and end entirely. The most important recent points are still being repeated.

So first 15-20 pages plus last couple of page will give you a pretty good summary.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:30 PM, universal soldier said:

Good lord, 111 pages. Is there a cliffnotes version anywhere? I will watch the video at some point after Christmas.

In short, the seller is taking lower graded books, slipping them into higher graded slabs and then getting them reholdered to make them official.  He is doing this with direct edition books(making them newsstand), newsstand books(turning them into MJ books), green label 181s (turning them blue), etc….

[paqart]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:34 PM, Nick Furious said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like a good time to revisit this question I've always had:  What is it about a 9.4 or 9.6 of this book that makes it so much less acceptable to so many people?  Is it actually the appearance of the book?  Or is more that the ease of obtaining it in those grades limits the desirability?  Or maybe something else altogether?  

Good point. For me, I think any GA book in 6.5 or better looks good, then SA in 7.0 or better, Bronze in 8.0 or better, then 9.0 and up for copper to modern. I have a few 9.8's, but need two pairs of glasses to see the blemishes. For that reason, I tend to get 9.2-9.6 instead, unless the price is right on a 9.8.

[EastEnd1]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:21 PM, paqart said:

EBay isn't liable for anything beyond a refund to the buyer because of their guaranty. That guaranty doesn't assign or admit fault, nor should it. As far as I can tell, eBay hasn't done anything wrong. However, they could be left holding the bag for damages. I have received a refund like that before, but think it was extracted from the seller through eBay. Something along the lines of, "you can voluntarily refund the buyer's money, or we'll do it and withhold the same amount plus a fee from your other sales."

I have a hard time believing eBay has a fund for refunds. It makes more sense they use insurance. If that is true, eBay's opinion is irrelevant. Insurance companies make money by paying off claims, then recovering the damages from whomever they can identify in the chain of responsibility. In this case, we're looking at around $100k or more in known damages, so it is worth the trouble to run this down.

Ebay typically recoups from the seller when it reimburses a buyer from its Guarantee program.  On something this large scale, hard to say how they'd handle, though its likely in their fine print.  There probably is an insurance company backing up the Guarantee pledge and I'd imagine the insurance company would go after the seller for a material payment they'd have to make on the policy.  I'd have to think the culprit would be easily identifiable for that purpose.

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

My understanding is that a 9.8 newsstand was swapped with this 9.2 MJ creating the 9.8 MJ, but this latest creation hasn’t hit the market yet.

@sledgehammer

That might be a question for @agamoto, as there was a lot of info listed along with different occurrences, so it's possible some info didn't get reflected correclty in the summarizing post I did.

Edited December 24, 2023 by comicwiz

[EastEnd1]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:34 PM, Nick Furious said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like a good time to revisit this question I've always had:  What is it about a 9.4 or 9.6 of this book that makes it so much less acceptable to so many people?  Is it actually the appearance of the book?  Or is more that the ease of obtaining it in those grades limits the desirability?  Or maybe something else altogether?  

A corollary to that that I have is why so much difference in value for a newstand vs direct vs foreign variant vs Mark Jewelers, etc?  The content is the same in each case.  I've never really understood why where a book was sold should matter, regardless of whether one type of seller took better care of the comic than another.  And the cover differences based on what the price or UPC code looks like (which again have nothing to do with the creative content) just strike me as irrelevant.  But that's just me and I can understand why some collectors might feel different.  Not intending to derail on what seems to be a very serious matter.

[migmtl76]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:10 PM, namisgr said:

I'd be much more concerned about the seller's horrendous e-bay feedback, and would never buy from such a seller no matter how great of an apparent deal was being offered.

Good point, those two negative feedbacks for counterfeit glasses are a red flag for sure.

Also no shill bidding going on here LOL...

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:45 AM, comicwiz said:

That might be a question for @agamoto, as there was a lot of info listed along with different occurrences, so it's possible some info didn't get reflected correclty in the summarizing post I did.

Summarized again here: 

Quite the comic book dosey-doe square dance.