ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, VintageComics said:

This sounds like a logistical nightmare, internally for CGC. Imagine the QC problems if one of the serial numbers goes with the wrong package?

Given there is ZERO QC totally agreed. Thats 2 times in 2 days, end of world is nigh...

If the issue in this thread is ever even addressed by CGC, and I still thinking it won't be, the simplest solution that ultimately increases their revenue without additional expense is no more mutants re-holders, re-submissions only.

 

On 12/24/2023 at 3:01 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How many books are we estimating have been compromised? Dozens?  Hundreds?  Thousands?

 IMHO logically we are barely in tip of the iceberg territory.

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:02 PM, MAR1979 said:

Given there is ZERO QC totally agreed.

If the issue in this thread is ever even addressed by CGC, and I still thinking it won't be, the simplest solution that ultimately increases their revenue without additional expense is no more mutants re-holders.

 

No more reholders seems a good starting point.

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, Stefan_W said:

When I brought up this story to my wife and told her that I was puzzled by how the person got books in and out of cases her response was "they make knock off prada bags that are hard to spot, why is this any different?" That was a big "huh" moment for me, and I started to think of this in terms of sourcing knock off cases instead of wedging books in and out of old ones. 

NGC, the coin grading arm, under the umbrella of CCG (Acquired by Blackstone), has had it's slab counterfeited since 2008 IIRC. And counterfeits continue to be found, not just for NGC either. To have expanded those counterfeits to cross-over into comics would only need an incentive. We're seeing plenty of it (and I mean, the monetary gain of swaps) with this one seller alone. NGC had a coin tampering case that is starting to resemble what is happening here.

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:37 PM, Comics said:

On 12/23/2023 at 6:56 PM, agamoto said:

To those trying to identify who Briva3/Zanglor is, it's not necessary, his identity is known already, but it's being kept from the public until there's some statement from CGC or some kind of investigation or indictment. From my perspective at least, all of this digging is to try and determine how deep the wounds made might be. 

Yup - and honestly with what I have seen I feel this specific scam doesn't go back as far or as deep as people are thinking. Is it bad? Absolutely. Is it thousands of books? I don't think so. Personally I feel its in the dozens. I know you have seen pretty much what I have so you might have another perspective but...

I agree. 

I'm sure many know who the person is but haven't shared it openly. CGC certainly knows who it is. It would be impossible for them not to know.

I also agree with the opinion that the scope of this scam isn't as vast as some think.

Again, just my opinion, based on my gut, ramblings I've heard throughout the industry over the years and what I know about CGC and their product. 

[Yorick]

Some of this is done "reholder", but those books that grab the high value appear to be done as "Mechanical Error".  We have seen a list of submissions for one of the certification numbers.  Raw books, reholder books, ME books...  All of it.

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:45 PM, agamoto said:

The other thing is how often this guy resold the same books, how the hell did eBay not recognize the obvious fraud going on there?

eBay has been guilty of being lax on shill bidding since it's inception and frankly, I hope this stings eBay to the extent that they crack down on it. 

[Prince Namor]

Good thread for reading on this topic. 

Master Chief from September 2, 2021, Page 44:

I can't help but wonder what may have happened if an investigative journalist, or the mainstream media at large, had taken notice of the allegations and outright shenanigans that took place right after, and in the subsequent years following, the rollout of the comic-book certification age.

While the hobby did have a "news outlet" publish an article in the attempt to address collector concerns following the discovery of the manipulated books from the Nicolas Cage Collection, as highlighted earlier in the thread with the posting of the CBG article, nothing else of any significance materialized to shed light on illicit behavior or root out elements that were alleged to be corrupt within the hobby. Not one. And that included arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby. That being the Jason Ewart trimming fiasco.

While the Ewart scandal generated deep public outrage within the walls of this and other related forums, it received no interest as a newsworthy story by the hobby press, including CBG. And that was even after several well-meaning collectors lobbied the publisher of CBG to research and compile some type of report that would deliver consumer awareness to the public about the matter.         

As Joe mentioned earlier, much of the tomfoolery discovered in the earlier days of the certification age was laid bare by astute collectors and presented on comic forums such as these. Unfortunately, those revelations, of which many appeared to be connected in one degree or another to the apparent conflict-of-interest between Halperin, Heritage, and CGC, went nowhere other than their little corners of cyberspace.

Many of us were surprised by this, and continue to be surprised to this day. The lack of press interest was, on its own, noteworthy. Perhaps it was designed to be that way. Let comic geeks gnash their teeth on meaningless message boards far away from the public eye while the hobby is fleeced to no end. It would seem so, in my opinion. Because for 20 years the certification establishment and its many lickspittles in the hobby assured us that everything was fine and that there was no validity to any of the conspiracy theories..."Remember how it was before CGC?" They would drone on about. "We're building back trust within the hobby...we've standardized the science of grading and have created a buying and selling tool for the internet that keeps the crooks at bay." Meanwhile, they'd continue to snub recognized hobby restoration standards by turning a blind eye toward disassembly, erasure, cleaning, restoration removal, pressing, etc. in an effort to make possible the key component of the crack-out game (manipulation) to drive the top-line.

In reading the latest Seth Abramson story, I was reminded of another who used to post rather frequently in the early days about hobby ongoings. He presented some of the first rather shocking manipulation examples bearing certified universal grades while editorializing his message from a perspective that he knew exactly what was going on. That individual was Daniel Dupcak.

Now before I get flamed for being some kind of Dupcak apologist, I'm not. I was right there in the trenches with a lot of you battling his dubious behavior. But if we remove the emotion and put aside Dupcak's history and just read his comments on the issue, he does raise some very interesting points. Points that relate to the allegations being made today by Abramson and others. I personally believe Dupcak knew too much, someone with inside information, and was seen as a liability from the powers that be. So, he was silenced from the boards. He did have a way of striking a nerve and getting people riled up, that's for sure.        

Here's a screen capture of comments by Dupcak from 9 years ago, using one of his many aliases, about the auctioning of the Cage collection. It's from the long defunct Comics Corral message boards. While I have studied the liquidation of the Cage collection, I have concluded with a high degree of confidence that some of the things he is saying are commensurate with the findings. The remarks he makes echo the comments of today.

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:07 PM, VintageComics said:

eBay has been guilty of being lax on shill bidding since it's inception and frankly, I hope this stings eBay to the extent that they crack down on it. 

Zero chance, It's actually a measured and ensured revenue stream for them.  The eBay exec's who collect 7 and 8 figure bonus' however can and will strong-arm, threaten and haress any they have reason to believe will affect a single penny of those bonus'; https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex-ebay-exec-heading-prison-harassing-couple-behind-newsletter-2022-09-29/

Two former eBay Inc (EBAY.O) executives were sentenced to prison on Thursday for carrying out a campaign to harass and intimidate a Massachusetts couple through threats and disturbing home deliveries after their online newsletter drew the ire of eBay's then-CEO.

Jim Baugh and David Harville were sentenced to 57 and 24 months in prison, respectively, for their roles in an extensive harassment campaign that involved sending the couple cockroaches, a funeral wreath and a bloody Halloween pig mask. 

U.S. District Judge Saris, who imposed the sentences during hearings in Boston, called it a "hard-to-imagine" scheme fueled by a "toxic culture" at the Silicon Valley e-commerce company.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:01 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How many books are we estimating have been compromised? Dozens?  Hundreds?  Thousands?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:15 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:59 PM, agamoto said:

Yeah, I don't think doxxing anyone is right... It's a distraction, especially when one of the B. A. Riva's is a female flight attendant for expressjet that graduated highschool in 2007 with zero connection to comics.

I can pretty assuredly affirm that everyone is on the wrong track and this is NOT the person. Let's stop hounding the wrong person. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:22 PM, VintageComics said:

I can pretty assuredly affirm that everyone is on the wrong track and this is NOT the person. Let's stop hounding the wrong person. 

We know the first name is Brees

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:01 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How many books are we estimating have been compromised? Dozens?  Hundreds?  Thousands?

This question is closely related to how long the individual has been running this particular scam. If it is recent then dozens or possibly low hundreds as a worst case scenario. If this has been going undetected for years then it could be several hundreds. I have a hard time with believing it is in the thousands considering the low census counts of some of these books. Having said this, if the person was doing a version of this scam where he was swapping out a 9.8 and putting a 9.4 copy of a random book into the case then the sky is the limit. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:53 PM, Steven Valdez said:

I suggested they put hologram stickers on all 4 edges but the moderator said that would be a 'waste of time'. I still wonder why he would say such a thing.

Because the complexity of adding 4 stickers multiplies the chances of something going wrong exponentially, making it a QC nightmare and also increasing the complexity of assembling cases.

CGC slabbing is not an automated assembly line. It's humans doing the work. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:23 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/24/2023 at 3:22 PM, VintageComics said:

I can pretty assuredly affirm that everyone is on the wrong track and this is NOT the person. Let's stop hounding the wrong person. 

We know the first name is Brees

I believe this is incorrect. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[agamoto]

I didn't know about that history with Heritage and Nic Cage's books and I don't doubt for a second that Heritage shill bids in order to buy stuff themselves. Pretty sure Jim Halperin, the founder outright admitted to that in a follow-up to Karl Jobst's expose. 

It should be required viewing of everyone in this hobby to watch the Karl Jobst critique of Jim Halperin, Heritage and WATA games. The rather blatant and obvious string pulling revealed is something else. We'd all be utter fools to think the same things aren't happening with comics. 

Jim is rumored to have the most valuable private collection of high grade comics in the world.  

I think Jim's coin grading outfit got into hot water for alleged market manipulation in the 80's too if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, and of course let's not forget Heritage owned 30% of CGC's parent company back in the day.

 

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:27 AM, Steven Valdez said:

On 12/23/2023 at 2:44 PM, VintageComics said:

Just try to think logically: It is highly likely the auction houses and big dealers are co-operating on this front. 

Colluding. The word is 'colluding'.

You're publicly accusing auction houses of colluding with CGC to cover up fraudulent, potentially criminal behavior?

Edited December 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:23 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

We know the first name is Brees

Well (and if I understand why this name was floated).....   that assumes any self-respecting con artist would always use his real first name when communicating with buyers. 

The way to know is through visa records associated with transactions and submissions (which may also be off, but this is a bit less likely). 

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

Good thread for reading on this topic. 

Master Chief from September 2, 2021, Page 44:

 

I can't help but wonder what may have happened if an investigative journalist, or the mainstream media at large, had taken notice of the allegations and outright shenanigans that took place right after, and in the subsequent years following, the rollout of the comic-book certification age.

While the hobby did have a "news outlet" publish an article in the attempt to address collector concerns following the discovery of the manipulated books from the Nicolas Cage Collection, as highlighted earlier in the thread with the posting of the CBG article, nothing else of any significance materialized to shed light on illicit behavior or root out elements that were alleged to be corrupt within the hobby. Not one. And that included arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby. That being the Jason Ewart trimming fiasco.

While the Ewart scandal generated deep public outrage within the walls of this and other related forums, it received no interest as a newsworthy story by the hobby press, including CBG. And that was even after several well-meaning collectors lobbied the publisher of CBG to research and compile some type of report that would deliver consumer awareness to the public about the matter.         

As Joe mentioned earlier, much of the tomfoolery discovered in the earlier days of the certification age was laid bare by astute collectors and presented on comic forums such as these. Unfortunately, those revelations, of which many appeared to be connected in one degree or another to the apparent conflict-of-interest between Halperin, Heritage, and CGC, went nowhere other than their little corners of cyberspace.

Many of us were surprised by this, and continue to be surprised to this day. The lack of press interest was, on its own, noteworthy. Perhaps it was designed to be that way. Let comic geeks gnash their teeth on meaningless message boards far away from the public eye while the hobby is fleeced to no end. It would seem so, in my opinion. Because for 20 years the certification establishment and its many lickspittles in the hobby assured us that everything was fine and that there was no validity to any of the conspiracy theories..."Remember how it was before CGC?" They would drone on about. "We're building back trust within the hobby...we've standardized the science of grading and have created a buying and selling tool for the internet that keeps the crooks at bay." Meanwhile, they'd continue to snub recognized hobby restoration standards by turning a blind eye toward disassembly, erasure, cleaning, restoration removal, pressing, etc. in an effort to make possible the key component of the crack-out game (manipulation) to drive the top-line.

In reading the latest Seth Abramson story, I was reminded of another who used to post rather frequently in the early days about hobby ongoings. He presented some of the first rather shocking manipulation examples bearing certified universal grades while editorializing his message from a perspective that he knew exactly what was going on. That individual was Daniel Dupcak.

Now before I get flamed for being some kind of Dupcak apologist, I'm not. I was right there in the trenches with a lot of you battling his dubious behavior. But if we remove the emotion and put aside Dupcak's history and just read his comments on the issue, he does raise some very interesting points. Points that relate to the allegations being made today by Abramson and others. I personally believe Dupcak knew too much, someone with inside information, and was seen as a liability from the powers that be. So, he was silenced from the boards. He did have a way of striking a nerve and getting people riled up, that's for sure.        

Here's a screen capture of comments by Dupcak from 9 years ago, using one of his many aliases, about the auctioning of the Cage collection. It's from the long defunct Comics Corral message boards. While I have studied the liquidation of the Cage collection, I have concluded with a high degree of confidence that some of the things he is saying are commensurate with the findings. The remarks he makes echo the comments of today.

There's a follow-up to the WATA story which ties into a number of points being made in your post. I'm going to post another reply on my computer to not crowd this reply which includes the video embed: 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by comicwiz

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:23 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

We know the name is Brees

Plot doth thicken..extending to the #2 career NFL passing touchdowns leader

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979