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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,031 posts in this topic

BigLeagueCHEW

BigLeagueCHEW

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 11:27 AM, adam_f said:

I think the scam is a bit more sophisticated and more profitable than we are assuming. It doesn't involve using two legitimate books. It involves one legitimate book and one counterfeit. Here's how it works --

1) Scammer buys a legitimate slabbed book.

2) Scammer cracks open slab and removes CGC label.

3) Scammer makes counterfeit book and puts it in a counterfeit slab with the real CGC label he took from the legitimate book.

4) Scammer submits for reholdering the counterfeit book in the counterfeit slab with the real CGC label. If the counterfeit book merits the same description as the original book, the scammer tells CGC it's a simple reholdering job.  Alternatively, if the counterfeit book merits a different description than the original book, the scammer points out to CGC that when they first graded the book, CGC "forgot" to note something important about the book, like that it was a Mark Jewelers or a newsstand (which CGC could not even verify before they implemented imaging). 

5) CGC reholders the book -- and, if need be, adds whatever it "missed" when it first graded the book -- but doesn't inspect the book carefully, because the reholdering department does not do that.

There are a few reasons this works:

1) It is not hard to make a counterfeit CGC slab.

2) It is basically impossible to make a counterfeit CGC label (because every legitimate label is in the CGC registry) -- which is why the scammer starts the scam by acquiring a real slabbed booked. 

3) It is not hard to create a so-so counterfeit book, especially when the economics of the scam justify it.  And the counterfeit only needs to be so-so in order to make it through the reholdering department.  

And it takes 1 try for the scammer to test, then off they go on the repeat cycle.

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Lightning55

Lightning55

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 8:01 AM, namisgr said:

It wasn't a scam.

It was a systematic problem with overzealous pressing at the CGC pressing partner CCS of early Silver Age Marvels that ruined the eye appeal of hundreds of exceptional high grade books, by causing their covers to markedly shrink, the top edges to become like shirt collars with too much starch, the interior pages to stick out badly beyond the cover, ink pen arrival dates to run, maverick staples to become badly impacted, and the cover to sometimes appear rotated counterclockwise.  Despite the resultant books looking substantially worse than they did before being overzealously pressed, they received higher grades from CGC.  Having started the thread on it, it's not a topic that I'd consider especially relevant to the present one, which is why I never made mention of it.

This is an example of what happened to one of the nicest high grade SA comic collections known, when the books were bought by an auction house, overzealously pressed, graded 'favorably', and then put up for auction:

JIM93.jpg     JIM96facejob.jpg

Thank you for the summation. I recognized the name in the thread title as someone I had sold a dozen Marvel Masterworks to. To see his name associated with some type of shady topic piqued my curiosity. 

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agamoto

agamoto

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 8:50 AM, Christophe9999 said:

Multiple MJ 9.8s in that submission

5/20/21

3806823003 - ASM 294 9.8 Mark Jewelers
3806823004 - ASM 301 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823005 - ASM 303 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823007 - ASM 306 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823010 - ASM 308 9.8 Mark Jewelers

 oh, COME ON, CGC. 

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migmtl76

migmtl76

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 1:45 PM, Lightning55 said:

Thank you for the summation. I recognized the name in the thread title as someone I had sold a dozen Marvel Masterworks to. To see his name associated with some type of shady topic piqued my curiosity. 

So shrinkage is real ? (George Costanza)

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Genuine Article Comics

Genuine Article Comics

Posted
Posted (edited)

CGC has to come up with a way to keep the inner well and label attached to one another.  If CGC heat seal/sonic weld the label and inner well together then this scam never happens. CBCS used to sonic weld their label to their inner well. With CBCS's cases being the best on the market for protection, clarity and security they don't need to do that anymore but CGC should absolutely adopt that solution. 

Edited by Genuine Article Comics
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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 12:35 AM, mjoeyoung said:
On 12/25/2023 at 12:32 AM, Lightning55 said:

Wow. If that's a "scam", this thread is the crime of the century. 

Looks like it is all about bad pressing in all its forms, including shrinkage (Costanzas) and blurring of inked dates on the cover, and I guess the "scam" is that a lot of them were being graded highly (9.6 and such).

The "scam" was that covers shrank and people were surprised they received high grades. It wasn't really a scam, it was more of an uproar. 

The reality is that covers for newsprint comic books ALWAYS shrink, or better put, change shape to varying degrees as to interior pages, and some pressing techniques may accelerate or exaggerate that effect.

For example, SA Marvels weren't printed with 'Marvel overhang' at the tops of covers and a shorter right edge. They were all cut flush on 3 sides originally, and then AFTER publishing the cover and interior pages changed shape over time, with the cover looking longer over time and less wide and the interior pages growing shorter and more wide. This change in shape happens due to the change in moisture content of the paper, the pulp in the paper settling and due to ambient factors that the books are stored in. 

 

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/25/2023 at 2:27 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Any new discoveries today?:popcorn:

I have what 'may' be a small piece of potential good news. 

I spoke to a very prominent, international convention dealer and shared the name of the alleged person involved (the real name, not the name speculated on in this thread) and they replied that they'd never heard the name before. 

This seems to makes it sound like the person allegedly involved may not have done much business on the convention circuit. If they had been on the con circuit, this dealer definitely would have heard of them.

Take that for what you will at this point. I take it as good news that this debacle may not have spread beyond online sales and into convention sales. 

Edited by VintageComics
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boreds

boreds

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/25/2023 at 9:50 AM, Christophe9999 said:

Multiple MJ 9.8s in that submission

5/20/21

3806823003 - ASM 294 9.8 Mark Jewelers
3806823004 - ASM 301 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823005 - ASM 303 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823007 - ASM 306 9.8 Mark jewelers
3806823010 - ASM 308 9.8 Mark Jewelers

Looks like the 294 is also on MCS https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?ivitems=13192861#59508275

Again the bottom left corner of the back cover looks rather suspect. None of the corners aren't "perfect" in my view.

 

Here's the 303, which looks better https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?ItemID=53904545

 

The 306 which went for big money earlier this year ($2034). https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?ItemID=59508283 What's interesting here is another 9.8 sold for $2951 in November, I wonder if he has anything to do with that book?

 

Finally the 308 sale: https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?ItemID=53904554

Edited by boreds
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Silver Surfer

Silver Surfer

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 12:10 PM, agamoto said:

he sold a canadian price variant asm 238 9.8 on ebay the same day it was noted as graded by cgc.

Funny I was tracking this auction in EBay and at the time commented in the Copper Age CPV thread that I thought the sale ($4,850) was well under market value. Sure enough it was this clowns listing. 

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paqart

paqart

Posted
Posted
On 12/25/2023 at 1:03 PM, Prince Namor said:

Stolen merchandise... not the same thing.

I guess... we'll just have to wait and see.  

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) investigates criminal counterfeiting, piracy, and other federal crimes. You can report suspicions concerning the manufacture or sale of counterfeit or pirated goods to the FBI by contacting your local FBI Office, or or calling (202) 324-3000 and asking to speak with the Duty Complaint Agent. If you suspect products for sale on the Internet are counterfeit or pirated, you can report your suspicions to the FBI Internet Fraud Complaint Center.

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