ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Buzzetta]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:54 AM, comicwiz said:

 

Very likely during reholder, custom label, kept the original grade date. But I'm not 100% on this because there's something about this that screams backstage access. Even in the latter case, the intent would be to mimic that process to ward off suspicion. I've got a mountain of data to run through, but this is how I'm trying to untangle some of that confusion. Haven't really properly sat down to think this through yet, leaving that to the great work the boardies have been providing.

On this point, I'd love if someone could create even a log at the moment of points in this thread where I've shown the green to blue for IH 181, and get a permalink for each of those (4 at the moment). I have a feeling there's going to be quite a few more to come, and I'd like to consolidate them all, perhaps either in a comment or another post showing these exact examples to help people navigate them better, and wade through these 130+ pages. Thanks!

That's the thing that troubles me.  The grading sequence does not make sense and that is when I start to consider, like you, that there is the possibility as to what you call, "backstage" access.  However, if there was something going on behind the scenes, why not just create a new serial number which would ward off further suspicion? 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Buzzetta

[Pcaedus]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:40 AM, comicwiz said:

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, particularly by Wolvie's forearm, there is a diagonal crease that travels from the spine in a diagonally downward direction by the fist area, vertifical colour break running just above the D in Incredible to the MCG banner, crimped top right corner with diagonal colour break. Red pen mark (resembling a cursive handwritten m) on back cover.

4155507003 - CGC Qualified 6.0 - Hulk 1818 - Sold Feb 13, 2023 - $2750 (GD: 11/16/2022)

 

4120217003 - CGC Universal 6.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold Apr 11, 2023 - $4216 (GD: 09/06/2022)

That tick by Wolvie's right claw is a dead giveaway this was a swap. Sheesh it gets worse by the day. I am thinking of switching over to raws now that slabs clearly cannot be trusted. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:16 AM, Pcaedus said:

That tick by Wolvie's right claw is a dead giveaway this was a swap. Sheesh it gets worse by the day. I am thinking of switching over to raws now that slabs clearly cannot be trusted. 

No doubt whatsoever it's the same book. I don't see how it could even have been a 6.0 (in the first place) with a piece of the story/art missing, on top of all the other defects.

[GDN]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:49 AM, namisgr said:

I'm slow on this issue, so please can you explain again how a green labelled copy became a blue labelled one despite being recorded by CGC as having been graded after the blue label copy?

CGC isn't regrading during the reholder so the unique certification # still shows up in CGC database with its original grading date (which is the date of a different book) even though it shows the new photos of the book with new label (often custom label).

The "blue" grading date is actually the date the book that was swapped out of the blue case was graded and not the date of the reholder.  This is why the timeline of the green label grading date and the frankensteined blue label grading date don't have to make sense in continuity.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:05 AM, MAR1979 said:

Prediction for Today Dec 26, 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC Today!

Prediction for Remainder of week, Dec 27,28 and 29 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC!

 

CGC will continue to be sent and receive submissions unabated and those Benji's will keeps rollin' in. So why would they ever say anything...

Thus far all my predication's in this matter have been 100% correct

You might also predict there'll be fires and/or flooding in parts of Australia.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[pdags]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:15 AM, Buzzetta said:

That's the thing that troubles me.  The grading sequence does not make sense and that is when I start to consider, like you, that there is the possibility as to what you call, "backstage" access.  However, if there was something going on behind the scenes, why not just create a new serial number? 

Separation of duties.  No one person should be able to do the entire grading/slabbing process from beginning to end.  I don't know CGCs processes, but a reasonable assumption is a person on the reholder team shouldn't have the ability to create new serial numbers.  They shouldn't have the need.  If they suspect a book has been tampered with, you would send it to the grading team for re-evaluation.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by pdags

[MAY1979]

 

 

On 12/26/2023 at 9:05 AM, MAR1979 said:

Prediction for Today Dec 26, 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC Today!

Prediction for Remainder of week, Dec 27,28 and 29 2023:

NO Statement from CGC! No Actions by CGC!

 

CGC will continue to be sent and receive submissions unabated and those Benji's will keeps rollin' in. So why would they ever say anything...

Thus far all my predication's in this matter have been 100% correct

 

On 12/26/2023 at 9:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

You might also predict there'll be fires and/or flooding in parts of Australia.

Fair point. More of Fish in Barrel statements on my part.

We have apologists here who insisted there would be a response prior to Christmas weekend   Apologists will now probably insist CGC will respond before New Years weekend - well those folks can keep clutching;  CGC will not respond this week, nor next week, nor next month, nor 1st quarter 2024...

The only way CGC/Blackstone makes a statement, or even begins an investigation, is if the flow of submissions sublimates downward.  Even then Blackstone may still simply sell CGC once certain profit thresholds are negatively breached and execs begin to fear their large bonus' might be impacted by even a dime. Therefore entirely plausible as long as Blackstone owns CGC nothing will be said or done. Remember folks Blackstone's ownership (via sum of their actions) is a somewhat textbook pump and dump.

Edited December 26, 2023 by MAR1979

[drotto]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:48 AM, Genuine Article Comics said:

What are the chances CGC changes their label/inner well construction vs. their reholder process?  It might be easier to just change the construction. Probably higher upfront costs but no impact to TATs etc.

Most likely CGC response is that the reholder process will be discontinued with little or no explanation. Just something like,

 

"due to continued high volume and low staff levels, we have decided to suspend the reholder service for the time being.  CGC is sorry for the inconvenience. You can continue to get new cases, but they must go through the grading process. Updated labels due to missing information, will be handled on a case to case basis.  Please contact CGC directly concerning this type of issue."

 

My prediction on the first and possible only thing we will hear from CGC. At some point in the next year or so, CGC will make some announcement, seemingly not connected, of new security meseasures being added to the cases. This will be proudly announced as a way to better serve the community, no explanation given for the changes. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think a separate thread tracking all the green to blue Hulk 181s is a great idea.

@comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:56 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think a separate thread tracking all the green to blue Hulk 181s is a great idea.

@comicwiz

It will just turn in to a mess

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:57 AM, sledgehammer said:

It will just turn in to a mess

 

What makes you say that?  I think they’re just being lost in this massive thread.

[Heronext]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:56 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think a separate thread tracking all the green to blue Hulk 181s is a great idea.

@comicwiz

Someone who posted on page 1 could volunteer to create an index of sorts (by editing one of those posts)

(EDIT: separate thread also not a bad idea)

Edited December 26, 2023 by Heronext

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:06 AM, sledgehammer said:

Bad press?

Sometimes a book incurs water damage when it time travels backwards.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:59 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What makes you say that?  I think they’re just being lost in this massive thread.

I agree with you, but I think they'll be lost in a different thread too

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

I agree with you, but I think they'll be lost in a different thread too

In a thread entitled ‘Green label Hulk 181s being turned into Blue’ or something like that?  The examples already found could be in the first post.  Easy to follow….

[sledgehammer]

Yes, but it's not my call.  Maybe @spidermanbeyond can edit the first post in the thread with a list of all of the books that Joe does this with, and when.

Edited December 26, 2023 by sledgehammer

[drotto]

When the Creep Engin slab issue was going on how long was it until CGC acknowledged the issue?  I seem to remember a lengthy thread detailing the issues, initially some denials, then they admitted to it and corrected the problem. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Yes, but it's not my call.  Maybe @spidermanbeyond can edit the first post in the thread with a list of all of the books that Joe does this with, and when.

Not my call either, but it would give new comers a place to start.  

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:56 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think a separate thread tracking all the green to blue Hulk 181s is a great idea.

@comicwiz

Another pending, I need better pics, but I'm 99.9% sure it's the same book. I'll spend the extra time to mine what I need, but I think it's necessary to have the complete picture.

Perhaps an assist from a mod to be able to go in an edit the first post to drop in others as new ones come in, but for now, even if someone creates a log of the link directly to that post in a personal word doc or excell spreadsheet, with a brief description of what that link goes to (i.e. Qualfied 7.0 to Universal 8.5 Incredible Hulk 181), then this will be useful.

I'm not even 1/8th of the way through the data, there will be others. The Hulk 181's are just easier for my mind to process with all the data and listings to wade through, I'll be exploring others from the list, and there's a lot.

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:26 AM, comicwiz said:

Another pending, I need better pics, but I'm 99.9% sure it's the same book. I'll spend the extra time to mine what I need, but I think it's necessary to have the complete picture.

Perhaps an assist from a mod to be able to go in an edit the first post to drop in others as new ones come in, but for now, even if someone creates a log of the link directly to that post in a personal word doc or excell spreadsheet, with a brief description of what that link goes to (i.e. Qualfied 7.0 to Universal 8.5 Incredible Hulk 181), then this will be useful.

I'm not even 1/8th of the way through the data, there will be others.

I think a Hulk 181 scam deserves its own thread.