ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:00 PM, grendel013 said:

Then maybe StickyGoose playing with his sonic welder too close to his ears and eyes.

[Stefan_W]

Just so make my point more accurately - yes, I do believe we are likely dealing with the same 181 based on the similarities on the front, and I really appreciated all of the time and effort it took to compile this. When I go through the pictures carefully I try to line up key features in the defects. 

When I said the back is less convincing than the front there are three flaws on the back that appear differently in the two photos. Again, these could just be lighting and resolution. I marked them on the blue label 181 back photo and re-attached it. 

A - there is a large and pronounced crease on the blue label that I cannot see on the green label. This is important because to my eye it looks as though it has not been pressed (or was pressed badly). 

B - the stain is deeper and easier to see. Could easily be lighting. 

C - a unique feature to the stain is a small "bite" in it where it is recessed in one spot. I do not see this in the green label, but that may just be resolution. 

So those are my points in a nutshell. Is it the same book? Probably. Would it hold up in a court of law with these pics? I have doubts it would, and I can't say I am more than 80% sure it is the same book either. 

 

[waaaghboss]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:02 AM, comicwiz said:

That's the fifth I just posted

5 scam 181s?  That's insane.  Still no cgc word on this is kinda starting to not look good.

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:55 AM, sledgehammer said:

Guy is a dope.

We've already seen that he, as Automatic Comics, stole info from comicwiz in his comments, deleted them,, and stated it was his discovery

That guy makes zero sense. I have about 750 CGC graded books currently in my possession, but in his mind, I want to see CGC die. Ok, whatever. I think a lot of us on these boards want to see CGC to succeed, but we also can't turn a blind eye towards any tampering or shenanigans with their product. We want to see them own this and come out stronger as a result. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:00 AM, grendel013 said:

Then maybe StickyGoose playing with his sonic welder too close to his ears and eyes.

He's not called "Sticky"goose for nothing.

Edited December 26, 2023 by skybolt

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:03 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/26/2023 at 11:00 AM, grendel013 said:

Then maybe StickyGoose playing with his sonic welder too close to his ears and eyes.

I know what you're thinking and I had the same thought.

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:02 PM, comicwiz said:

That's the fifth I just posted

@THE_BEYONDER I think I might be incorrect, I counted 6. I'm going to send you a PM with all the links, and you can confirm, and use them to compile. Might be a little easier than wading through this all. The ones I began today are formatted to two links for each discovery, the ones previous have more links.

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

JMO

People are going to open these blue labels and find the qualified books inside.

I don't think there are undetectable marrieds.

+1

[comicwiz]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:12 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

The white color-breaker in the letter "U" in Hulk. That would be the biggest clue for me

@Stefan_W - @WestcoastDAVEngers's tell is also a good clincher, check back and you'll see they are an exact match.

Unfortunately, we are confined to whatever images are available, and sometimes there's certain characteristics which I only see after better pics get posted. The one above is one of them (beyond the stain). I do think though that some of the things you raise are noteworthy for a much later discussion, as I'm noticed defects which weren't visible in the before, and this was something I was hoping to expand on after I do the heavy lifting of finding swaps. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[Stefan_W]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:18 PM, comicwiz said:

@Stefan_W - @WestcoastDAVEngers's tell is also a good clincher, check back and you'll see they are an exact match.

Unfortunately, we are confined to whatever images are available, and sometimes there's certain characteristics which I only see after better pics get posted. The one above is one of them (beyond the stain). I do think though that some of the things you raise are noteworthy for a much later discussion, as I'm noticed defects which weren't visible in the before, and this was something I was hoping to expand on after I do the heavy lifting of finding swaps. 

I really appreciate all of the hard work you are putting into this - well done!

[mephistopheles]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:15 AM, Buzzetta said:

That's the thing that troubles me.  The grading sequence does not make sense and that is when I start to consider, like you, that there is the possibility as to what you call, "backstage" access.  However, if there was something going on behind the scenes, why not just create a new serial number which would ward off further suspicion? 

Maybe it was a simple typo by CGC data entry clerk? Is it only the 1 switcheroo with impossible grade dates?

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

JMO

People are going to open these blue labels and find the qualified books inside.

I don't think there are undetectable marrieds.

I also think this is the reason we haven't seen any restored books in blue labels yet (at least from this guy). He doesn't want to take the chance of a CGC employee or a buyer finding an obvious resto on the front and back cover. The missing inserts are easier to hide.

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:21 AM, mephistopheles said:

Maybe it was a simple typo by CGC data entry clerk? Is it only the 1 switcheroo with impossible grade dates?

As noted above, we now believe the date discrepancy was based on the original unrestored slab retaining its original grading date, even if it was reholdered months later (after the switcheroo). 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:23 PM, skybolt said:

I also think this is the reason we haven't seen any restored books in blue labels yet (at least from this guy). He doesn't want to take the chance of a CGC employee or a buyer finding an obvious resto on the front and back cover. The missing inserts are easier to hide.

What about trimmed books? 

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What about trimmed books? 

Still visible from the outer shell. The scammer wanted to remain as discrete as possible and basically hide behind CGC overgrading books as an excuse.

[comicwiz]

Taking a break, from my last look, I compiled 6 Hulk 181's, I sent it off the compilation of links @THE_BEYONDER to double-check, and to organize if we decide to go the direction of starting a new post consolidating it all.

[drotto]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What about trimmed books? 

The books found still seem to be bronze and copper age books.  Trimmed seems to be a much bigger issue in SA books, but I could be wrong. But it is another items that seem likely to go un-noticed with swapping.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:35 PM, drotto said:

The books found still seem to be bronze and copper age books.  Trimmed seems to be a much bigger issue in SA books, but I could be wrong. But it is another items that seem likely to go un-noticed with swapping.

Turning SA trimmed books into blue labels could be quite lucrative.  Hopefully this isn’t already happening….

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:20 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Probably something like, 'They laughed at me, called me names. But I'll show them. I'll show them ALL!'

“And if it wasn’t for those meddling kids I would have got away with it”