ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:16 PM, migmtl76 said:

There are a few eBay sellers that always have Hulk 181s, ASM 300s and other big keys for sale like on an almost weekly basis. I wonder what they are really doing. 

Yeah, there's a guy who lists about 10 x #181 per month. As well as other Bronze to Modern keys, including ASM #238, usually with either the MJ insert OR Tatooz.

I see he's also been selling lots of page 10s from Hulk #181, without even the MVS on them. He still gets OK money on them anyway. I guess this is why there are so many qualified #181's out there with the entire page 10 missing, instead of just the MVS being gone.

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

There's a CGC #181 with page 10 missing on eBay now... with a blue label?? "Condition is Like New."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166510757271?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NtUhIwj5Tou&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

Another scary possibility that hasn't been touched on yet is those counterfeit key issues that at least a couple of guys have been producing... FOR YEARS, and are still being sold on eBay.

What happens when these wind up in popped CGC cases?

Raw examples:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196151052411?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=rPTFAyj_Qv6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[Lightning55]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:57 AM, Steven Valdez said:

You only need one blue label CGC copy, and it would only need to be mid-grade to make some decent coinage. The non-MVS #181 can be raw, and therefore much cheaper than a qualified graded copy.

Presumably you will have practised opening low value CGC cases until you're very good at it. There's still good $$ to be made even on a mid-grade switcheroo.

I'm sure there are plenty of miscreants at the very least contemplating it right now.

The non-MVS Hulk 181 cannot be raw.

It has to already be in a capsule/well to be swapped in as a unit, unless you have also seen a video of someone swapping raw comics into sealed capsules. Doing that is not at all like popping a frame. Gonna look bad, if you could even do it.

Maybe if you have your own supply of inner wells and frames. And the sealing equipment, another 5 figures for that.

I won't say someone won't try. There's always some yahoo who will try anything, like getting their tongue frozen to a metal pole.

People doing this every day, all day? No, not going to happen. It's a fantasy, all in your imagination. One in a million (which is still too many).

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 7:04 PM, Lightning55 said:

 

On 1/1/2024 at 7:04 PM, Lightning55 said:

The non-MVS Hulk 181 cannot be raw.

It has to already be in a capsule/well to be swapped in as a unit, unless you have also seen a video of someone swapping raw comics into sealed capsules. Doing that is not at all like popping a frame. Gonna look bad, if you could even do it.

Maybe if you have your own supply of inner wells and frames. And the sealing equipment, another 5 figures for that.

I won't say someone won't try. There's always some yahoo who will try anything, like getting their tongue frozen to a metal pole.

People doing this every day, all day? No, not going to happen. It's a fantasy, all in your imagination. One in a million (which is still too many).

It really sounds like you don't want this to be happening, not that it isn't happening.

"It has to already be in a capsule/well"  Not necessarily, but sure - that's preferable and achievable. You make it sound like that's not a possibility.

"Maybe if you have your own supply of inner wells and frames."

Common knowledge this is available online from China. Or you can canibalize from a random no-value slabbed book.

"And the sealing equipment, another 5 figures for that."  Glue is not that expensive. You're erecting strawman arguments.

Hulk #181 is just a high-value example; plenty of lower-value lower-risk scenarios out there. Let's sit back and wait and see what unfolds over the coming weeks and months.

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

'I was at one of Carbanaros NY conventions in what I think was year 2000, the year CGC was getting organized. The conversation amongst a few dealers was about a guy in New Jersey who still had a brown box case of uncirculated Hulk 181. The debate was do you just pull one book at a time and sell it without telling people you have hundreds.'
posted in 'Comics general'.
May 4, 2009 Topnotchman

[Lightning55]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:11 AM, Steven Valdez said:

It really sounds like you don't want this to be happening, not that it isn't happening.

Hulk #181 is just a high-value example; plenty of lower-value lower-risk scenarios out there. Let's sit back and wait and see what unfolds over the coming weeks and months.

Most people, I would think, don't want this happening, casting a pall on a popular hobby. Although a few CGC haters are overjoyed. For me, it won't have any direct effect.

I'm just tired of the fear mongers and alarmists out there speculating about how the sky will fall. The reality will be that almost nothing will happen, almost nothing will change in the marketplace.

And far from sitting back, you are yelling fire in a crowded theater. For some reason you are trying to create fear and doubt in people's minds. Your ludicrous statement, as soon as your 4 day detention was over, something like "worst case scenario" was made to stir the pot, see if people would fall in to your way of thinking. I believe a couple did, so success???

And now you want to plant some naive idea that everyone is at home sharpening screwdrivers in preparation of a mass comic substitution hysteria.

There's one on every forum, and you're that guy.

Edited January 1 by Lightning55

[Lightning55]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:28 AM, Steven Valdez said:

'I was at one of Carbanaros NY conventions in what I think was year 2000, the year CGC was getting organized. The conversation amongst a few dealers was about a guy in New Jersey who still had a brown box case of uncirculated Hulk 181. The debate was do you just pull one book at a time and sell it without telling people you have hundreds.'
posted in 'Comics general'.
May 4, 2009 Topnotchman

Nice for the "guy", but irrelevant to anything happening here.

[namisgr]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:31 AM, Steven Valdez said:

There's a CGC #181 with page 10 missing on eBay now... with a blue label?? "Condition is Like New."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166510757271?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NtUhIwj5Tou&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

It's a blue label sporting a 'poor' grade.  That's why it's got a blue label.  Also irrelevant to anything happening here.

Edited January 1 by namisgr

[Steven Valdez]

@ImmaculateComics (responding to a comment taking him to task for his video showing how CGC cases can be popped)

2 days ago

"I should mention that I did accidentally discover a different (and easier) method for opening and resealing 3 cgc slabs in the Summer of 2021. I did not and have not shown that method specifically for the reasons you mentioned." 

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[namisgr]

Your quote conspicuously leaves out whether the poster thought the slabs that he'd opened and resealed were undetectable after doing so.

[Steven Valdez]

On a more cheerful note, I wonder if Marvel is preparing a massive 50th anniversary for Wolvie this year??

[migmtl76]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:27 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Yeah, there's a guy who lists about 10 x #181 per month. As well as other Bronze to Modern keys, including ASM #238, usually with either the MJ insert OR Tatooz.

I see he's also been selling lots of page 10s from Hulk #181, without even the MVS on them. He still gets OK money on them anyway. I guess this is why there are so many qualified #181's out there with the entire page 10 missing, instead of just the MVS being gone.

Anything shady possiblity going on here ?

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:07 PM, migmtl76 said:

Anything shady possiblity going on here ?

Not sure, but strange that the guy has so many #181's without the value stamp... as well as plenty that DO have it.

Selling page 10 (and several copies of it) without the MVS is just so weird though:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204518417850?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=lYSZf4ADSY2&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited January 1 by Steven Valdez

[namisgr]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:40 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Another scary possibility that hasn't been touched on yet is those counterfeit key issues that at least a couple of guys have been producing.

I have the impression that only a single seller has been definitively outed so far.

[blackshadow1964]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:42 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Not sure, but strange that the guy has so many #181's without the value stamp... as well as plenty that DO have it.

Selling page 10 (and several copies of it) without the MVS is just so weird though:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204518417850?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=lYSZf4ADSY2&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

It just dawned upon me that the letter on this page is from Mary Jo Duffy, who did go on to write Wolverine stories in the future. Ironic.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:04 AM, Lightning55 said:

The non-MVS Hulk 181 cannot be raw.

It has to already be in a capsule/well to be swapped in as a unit, unless you have also seen a video of someone swapping raw comics into sealed capsules. Doing that is not at all like popping a frame. Gonna look bad, if you could even do it.

Maybe if you have your own supply of inner wells and frames. And the sealing equipment, another 5 figures for that.

I won't say someone won't try. There's always some yahoo who will try anything, like getting their tongue frozen to a metal pole.

People doing this every day, all day? No, not going to happen. It's a fantasy, all in your imagination. One in a million (which is still too many).

Lots of straw here. We haven’t spent a lot of time discussing the inner well, but this isn’t anything approaching a five figure investment, you pulled that number out of your butt. Gaming the inner well is likely the easiest of material components of a slab to replicate. I think you have an image in your head of some dork with a butter knife an exacto blade and some superglue trying to swap the inner well? Why do that when you can just stick it in a brand new one? You think CGC has some special stock of those that cannot be reproduced exactly for relative pennies? Any petroleum derivatives are the most easily fabricated substances on earth at scale and in prototyping. You can prototype an entire sports shoe from China for hundreds of dollars, this is child’s play. I think there was a link earlier in this thread to PSA card blanks and sealing machines on Alibaba. If the eBay of China is openly advertising the materials and equipment to fake authentication then the idea is not fantasy, not theory, not an outlier or a rarity. It’s a viable business model with minimal barriers to entry. Downplaying this thread as an isolated incident and labeling anyone that says otherwise as alarmist, or whatever is intellectually dishonest. You don’t want any of it to be true. Nor does any other collector with six figures invested in CGC assets that factor prominently in their projected net worth and future retirement that factors into the rationalization in their head and to their wives on why they should spend thousands on comics magically worth more for the blessed sacraments bestowed upon them in a plastic shell. 

[pdags]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:32 AM, Lightning55 said:

It's not as easy as it sounds, and may require very deep pockets.

You have to ignore everything going on to believe that it isn't that easy.   Plus, it only requires deep pockets if you start with the most expensive comics.  Only an insufficiently_thoughtful_person would do that.  You work your way up to it, building skill and reinvesting profit to make bigger purchases.

The fact that one person was doing this for years undetected, shows it was that easy and it was profitable (easily enough to cover their expenses and the risk of going to jail).

 

 

Edited January 1 by pdags

[sledgehammer]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:27 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Yeah, there's a guy who lists about 10 x #181 per month. As well as other Bronze to Modern keys, including ASM #238, usually with either the MJ insert OR Tatooz.

I see he's also been selling lots of page 10s from Hulk #181, without even the MVS on them. He still gets OK money on them anyway. I guess this is why there are so many qualified #181's out there with the entire page 10 missing, instead of just the MVS being gone.

This comic sold for $2,500 in 2018.

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1221671001/

What makes you think that additionally attaching the MVS to a book that has had page 10 (without the MVS) glued back in to it, will deter someone from buying it??

Haven't you ever seen a book that somebody actually glued a MVS back in to?

[sledgehammer]

On 1/1/2024 at 3:21 AM, namisgr said:

On 1/1/2024 at 1:31 AM, Steven Valdez said:

There's a CGC #181 with page 10 missing on eBay now... with a blue label?? "Condition is Like New."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166510757271?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NtUhIwj5Tou&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=08cSBa6BRJy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

It's a blue label sporting a 'poor' grade.  That's why it's got a blue label.  Also irrelevant to anything happening here.

I've seen a qualified .5 book before. people keep saying that, but there are qualified books for every grade on GPA.