ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[mycomicshop]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:50 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

awesome info! Good to know  

I don't suppose you have the scans from way back then? to now compare to any new ones?

Click the links for any of the books (except the two that were returned rather than sold) to take you to our product page showing the archived sale, and that has links to the full size front and back scans, even for the oldest one from 2012.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:46 PM, mycomicshop said:

Given the volume of posts in this thread this feels like shouting into a hurricane, but here's an update regarding the intersection of these books with MCS.

We loaded the 350 slab IDs into a database table and cross-checked against current inventory and previous inventory and sales.

Total of 6 books, and none of them were currently in inventory.

1 and 2:
Two ASM 194 Newsstand 9.8s (4121886002 and 4199541002) that were consigned with us earlier in 2023 than returned to the consignor at his request in Sep 2023 prior to any sale. We do not suspect the consignor is involved in this. We contacted the consignor, who was already aware of the issue. He says he bought those two from briva3 on eBay, and also has a third on the CGC list that he acquired from ComicLink. He's sending all 3 back to CGC.

3: Ultimate Spider-Man (2009 2nd Series) 160F CGC 9.8 SS 1061933001
Sold May 27 2012 to a buyer on eBay. Our order archive doesn't preserve buyer name/address from that period so don't know who bought it.
We know the consignor and the consignor is not part of the scam. Don't know why this book is on the list. Maybe the scammer bought it some time after 2012 and reholdered it, either for benign or nefarious purposes, and it's on the list because it was touched by his account? No idea.

4: Nyx 3 CGC 9.8 1265712015
Sold June 19 2015 to a buyer on eBay.
We know the consignor and the consignor is not part of the scam.

5: Hulk 181 CGC 9.0 1055471002
Sold May 11 2021 to a buyer on MCS
We bought it April 2021 from somebody who at the time told us he bought it for $12K Mar 12 2021 (lines up with sale tracked by GPA, my guess is he bought it on eBay).
The buyer is definitely not involved in the scam. We've reported the issue to the person that bought it from us. If there is a problem with the book, I'm assuming it went qualified to blue label and the change was made prior to that Mar 12 2021 sale.

6: ASM 252 Newsstand CGC 9.8 4040878007
Sold Jun 23 2023 to a buyer on eBay, user name elysium142 that I see has already been cited as being associated with the scammer. Kew Gardens address. The book was legit when we sold it, purchased by the scammer presumably to use in his fraud.

Additionally, we've set up an alert in our software so that if any books on CGC's list come to us in the future, at the point we scan the barcode it'll alert us about the book so we won't record it.

Thank you for the update and transparency. 

[WolverineX]

Other than the ebay handle, has this scammer been named yet?  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:51 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

 

ah the links, was too busy reading

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:58 PM, WolverineX said:

Other than the ebay handle, has this scammer been named yet?  

Not yet 

[wiparker824]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:46 AM, mycomicshop said:

Given the volume of posts in this thread this feels like shouting into a hurricane, but here's an update regarding the intersection of these books with MCS.

We loaded the 350 slab IDs into a database table and cross-checked against current inventory and previous inventory and sales.

Total of 6 books, and none of them were currently in inventory.

1 and 2:
Two ASM 194 Newsstand 9.8s (4121886002 and 4199541002) that were consigned with us earlier in 2023 than returned to the consignor at his request in Sep 2023 prior to any sale. We do not suspect the consignor is involved in this. We contacted the consignor, who was already aware of the issue. He says he bought those two from briva3 on eBay, and also has a third on the CGC list that he acquired from ComicLink. He's sending all 3 back to CGC.

3: Ultimate Spider-Man (2009 2nd Series) 160F CGC 9.8 SS 1061933001
Sold May 27 2012 to a buyer on eBay. Our order archive doesn't preserve buyer name/address from that period so don't know who bought it.
We know the consignor and the consignor is not part of the scam. Don't know why this book is on the list. Maybe the scammer bought it some time after 2012 and reholdered it, either for benign or nefarious purposes, and it's on the list because it was touched by his account? No idea.

4: Nyx 3 CGC 9.8 1265712015
Sold June 19 2015 to a buyer on eBay.
We know the consignor and the consignor is not part of the scam.

5: Hulk 181 CGC 9.0 1055471002
Sold May 11 2021 to a buyer on MCS
We bought it April 2021 from somebody who at the time told us he bought it for $12K Mar 12 2021 (lines up with sale tracked by GPA, my guess is he bought it on eBay).
The buyer is definitely not involved in the scam. We've reported the issue to the person that bought it from us. If there is a problem with the book, I'm assuming it went qualified to blue label and the change was made prior to that Mar 12 2021 sale.

6: ASM 252 Newsstand CGC 9.8 4040878007
Sold Jun 23 2023 to a buyer on eBay, user name elysium142 that I see has already been cited as being associated with the scammer. Kew Gardens address. The book was legit when we sold it, purchased by the scammer presumably to use in his fraud.

Additionally, we've set up an alert in our software so that if any books on CGC's list come to us in the future, at the point we scan the barcode it'll alert us about the book so we won't record it.

Applaud the effort here. The last one certainly interesting… very well could have been a book intended to be used as the legit 9.8 holder for his most recent reholder attempts.

[WolverineX]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:03 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Not yet 

It's time 

 

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:13 AM, drotto said:

That run a 4 consecutive ASM 300 is what makes me think he has at least 4 real 9.8's, certainly enough to really keep this rolling.

 

Still astounds me that one person submitting that many high grades from two or three issues would not raise any red flags. Who has that kinda supply of ultra high grades.  I have heard of people hoarding copies of key books, but never of that consistent quality level. 

He absolutely has more than 1 ASM 300 in 9.8 that he's resubbing with. It's not a hard book to find in 9.8 as long as you have the cash and there is no way he's doing this 1 book at a time. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:08 PM, WolverineX said:

It's time 

 

 

Unless the scammer is well known in the collecting community, does it really matter what their name is?

[shadroch]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:10 PM, LordRahl said:

He absolutely has more than 1 ASM 300 in 9.8 that he's resubbing with. It's not a hard book to find in 9.8 as long as you have the cash and there is no way he's doing this 1 book at a time. 

He'd still be in business if he'd done it one book at a time.

[sd2416]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:51 PM, wiparker824 said:

I’d rather not give too many ideas to the scammer but I can tell you I’d no longer have any book on this list in my possession if I were him and I’ll leave it at that. 

I think you already did. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:10 PM, LordRahl said:

He absolutely has more than 1 ASM 300 in 9.8 that he's resubbing with. It's not a hard book to find in 9.8 as long as you have the cash and there is no way he's doing this 1 book at a time. 

Perhaps pre-screening a small stack each time.

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:52 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Is there any evidence that the scammer was selling swapped books that didn’t first go to CGC for a reholder?

I would love to know this as well

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:10 AM, namisgr said:

A different way to phrase the question: is there proof the scammer did not sell swapped books that didn't first go to CGC for reholder?  To me, that's what the collecting community needs to know, and until such time as it is answered each and every CGC submission by the perpetrator that's been sold or offered for sale has to be viewed with suspicion.

While not impossible, it would be VERY difficult to prove he never sold swapped books without first going to CGC. Easy enough to prove he did if one or more are found but not the other way around. 

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:11 AM, EastEnd1 said:

We really don't know what the scammer actually did... CGC has confirmed very little other than admitting that he tampered with holders, it got thru their process, and providing a list of doctored books who's qualification for the list isn't defined.  What we know for certain is that the scammer swapped books... whether the holders had identifiable damage or not, no answer still.  And we have a chemist that demonstrated in pretty quick fashion that the current holders can be opened and resealed without obvious damage.  That makes me nervous that the scammer may have been able to do the same... and without any scruples about ripping people off.  So yes, I think every graded book he's touched should be on the list.

How would CGC know whether or not he sold swapped books if they didn't first go to CGC for reholder?

[Heronext]

Given a CGC slab cert # sold in the past, does anyone know a way to find the eBay ID that purchased that listing?  This is related to uncovering other possibly related IDs (someone I sold to).  Feel free to PM me if you know a method.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:23 PM, Heronext said:

Given a CGC slab cert # sold in the past, does anyone know a way to find the eBay ID that purchased that listing?  This is related to uncovering other possibly related IDs (someone I sold to).  Feel free to PM me if you know a method.

@comicwiz

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:32 AM, tmac100 said:

Let's say a lot of the books that are not fraudulent (like this one that may not be fraudulent) are ones he kept for his personal collection, which I think is likely.  What does he do with those books now?  Hard to sell because they are on the illegitimate list, but he can't really send them back to CGC as part of their offer of compensation/review of potentially impacted books.  I guess he could find a clueless buyer, but tough to do with books of that caliber.  Maybe just crack and sell raw or reholder at another grading company.

Well if they are for his PC, he might... you know... keep them for his PC? Just spitballing here

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:25 PM, LordRahl said:

Well if they are for his PC, he might... you know... keep them for his PC? Just spitballing here

[LordRahl]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:15 AM, shadroch said:

He'd still be in business if he'd done it one book at a time.

You are probably correct. Which is part of the reason I don't think there are thousands of fraudulent books out there as some on this thread have stated. The more there are, the higher the chance of getting caught.