ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

The only one without a signature on the front got a custom label.

Yet the scan on CGC now, of it in the custom label,  showed no obvious changes.

A pressing service that is connected to him, has a proliferation of Stan Lee back cover signings as "after" photos.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:29 AM, wiparker824 said:

although the 002 book now has a new graded date of 1/5/24. Indicating they graded this after they put it on this list?

My guess is he doesn't own it now, and the owner sent it in to be cleared.

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:30 AM, sledgehammer said:

My guess is he doesn't own it now, and the owner sent it in to be cleared.

The list came out on the 3rd though right? He’d have had to see the list and overnight the book immediately to have it graded on the 5th. Possible I guess… 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:34 AM, wiparker824 said:

On 1/9/2024 at 7:30 AM, sledgehammer said:

My guess is he doesn't own it now, and the owner sent it in to be cleared.

The list came out on the 3rd though right? He’d have had to see the list and overnight the book immediately to have it graded on the 5th. Possible I guess… 

Maybe some people were made aware of the list before it was public knowledge.

[sledgehammer]

Maybe one of his facebook "friends" owned it.

Edited January 9 by sledgehammer

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:36 AM, sledgehammer said:

Maybe some people were made aware of the list before it was public knowledge.

CGC has quite the power if they know who the scammer sold it to to reach out to them. They would know who submitted for reholder/custom label (the scammer) but this book doesn’t appear on GPA as being sold and a book of this magnitude would have been seen by someone in this thread if the sale was public. If it was sold after the scammer submitted for reholder one would think it was a private sale. If CGC knows the private dealings of this individual(s) that would be quite hopeful going forward, I’m not sold on that being the case though. 

[comicginger1789]

On 1/8/2024 at 10:15 PM, sledgehammer said:

someone already mentioned today, that you had said that you purchased it from the comic store in Brooklyn. I can tell you that it appears to me, that it was visible in a photo behind the owner of a store at a convention in 2019. It appears that it is in the same Stan Lee, custom label, and it also appears at a distance, as tho stan's signature is in the same place on the front cover along with Ayres. I don't know that I would be comfortable, when I was not the one that submitted the book, to send it to CGC to be reviewed, without them, explaining to me, exactly what it is that they need to look for. Good luck, this Situation feels like it would be ulcer inducing to me.

It could mean the fake book has just been around for a while....I have some major issues with the Ayers signature on this one. I spent a few hours last night perusing Ayers sigs (sold copies, graded, raws) and while I know this was signed in 2013 near the end of his life, it really does not look anything like any of the 2012 and 2013 signatures I could find. Mainly the Y in Ayers and the way he writes the E....I would not be shocked if CGC found those signatures to be fake.

But then again, how would they verify this? They don't have a signature person on hand...and I sure hope they don't take the lazy approach and just say "oh well it looks like it could kinda be 8.0 and the signatures well we will just go with that". I hope they are doing due diligence on this aspect of the verification on these books.

Edited January 9 by comicginger1789

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:42 AM, wiparker824 said:

CGC has quite the power if they know who the scammer sold it to to reach out to them. They would know who submitted for reholder/custom label (the scammer) but this book doesn’t appear on GPA as being sold and a book of this magnitude would have been seen by someone in this thread if the sale was public. If it was sold after the scammer submitted for reholder one would think it was a private sale. If CGC knows the private dealings of this individual(s) that would be quite hopeful going forward, I’m not sold on that being the case though. 

It could be someone that quickly realized who this was, maybe even from the nameless case i laid out almost two weeks ago, figured it out, knew he bought the AF 15 from him and contacted CGC about it. Who knows for sure?

Edited January 9 by sledgehammer

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:46 AM, sledgehammer said:

It could be someone that quickly realized who this was, maybe even from the nameless case i laid out almost two weeks ago, figured it out, knew he bought the AF 15 from him and contacted CGC about it. Who knows for sure?

Well CGC knows for sure lol. But we don’t know, just seems very odd. I was also under the impression the book would get a new cert if it was regraded and verified and the new graded date would therefore not be on this submission but on the new one. This one would have then been removed from the list (like others that have been crossed off) which it hasn’t been and removed from the census. 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:42 AM, comicginger1789 said:

It could mean the fake book has just been around for a while....I have some major issues with the Ayers signature on this one. I spent a few hours last night perusing Ayers sigs (sold copies, graded, raws) and while I know this was signed in 2013 near the end of his life, it really does not look anything like any of the 2012 and 2013 signatures I could find. Mainly the Y in Ayers and the way he writes the E....I would not be shocked if CGC found those signatures to be fake.

But then again, how would they verify this? They don't have a signature person on hand...and I sure hope they don't take the lazy approach and just say "oh well it looks like it could kinda be 8.0 and the signatures well we will just go with that". I hope they are doing due diligence on this aspect of the verification on these books.

I don't follow your reasoning. Here are the notes. What are you saying could be part of the scam?

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/0117152009/

[jas1vans]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:44 AM, sledgehammer said:

A list of every one of his submissions, needs to be posted somewhere.

If it can be proven that this person is working with others, I'd hope a list of every one of their submissions is posted as well.

[mrd160]

Feel like I can say this at this point, I met the scammer personally he was working at the booth of The said shop in Brooklyn at a comic book show. There is definitely a connection between the two what it is I am not gonna say and don’t know but it doesn’t look good. Many of the suspicions books were there and offered to me after the show by text.

Edited January 9 by mrd160

[shadroch]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:42 AM, comicginger1789 said:

It could mean the fake book has just been around for a while....I have some major issues with the Ayers signature on this one. I spent a few hours last night perusing Ayers sigs (sold copies, graded, raws) and while I know this was signed in 2013 near the end of his life, it really does not look anything like any of the 2012 and 2013 signatures I could find. Mainly the Y in Ayers and the way he writes the E....I would not be shocked if CGC found those signatures to be fake.

But then again, how would they verify this? They don't have a signature person on hand...and I sure hope they don't take the lazy approach and just say "oh well it looks like it could kinda be 8.0 and the signatures well we will just go with that". I hope they are doing due diligence on this aspect of the verification on these books.

They've got their top QC people looking into it.

[mrd160]

Also, I have an honest question. Why is it OK to out the eBay store IDs and the auction houses that have dealt in these books but not the brick and mortar? It is possible, in fact highly likely, that many dealers dealt with these books probably many unknowingly. Unless we know the change of possession of all this guys books we’re never gonna be able to get the whole story. Just because the store sold the books doesn’t necessarily mean they were in on it but it is an added piece of the puzzle and deserves scrutiny and investigation

[brute_nm]

On 1/9/2024 at 5:44 AM, sledgehammer said:

ONCE AGAIN.

Every book that this guy has touched should have the cert # EXPOSED.

On 12/18, Mikey C noted that a 9.8 ASM 252 copy that zaneglor sold, looked exactly like the real 9.8 that was part of the swap that started all this.

That cert # https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4324007003/

That comic book is not on the list. Neither is  001, 002, 004, or 007.

The only two on the list, are THE ONES with a custom label, 005 and 006 AND THE GRADE DATE IS NOT DIFFERENT.

All of the other books are 9.8, and not custom labels, of the EXACT keys that he scams.

That means, he may have these slabs, and can try to insert sleeves in to them again, through some private listing consigner, without the additional benefit that the custom holder swapping was giving him.

A list of every one of his submissions, needs to be posted somewhere.

@CGC Mike this is very concerning. PLEASE ask the team to a) provide criteria of how the list was determined and/or b) update the list to include ALL of the account's submissions.

[comicginger1789]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:52 AM, sledgehammer said:

I don't follow your reasoning. Here are the notes. What are you saying could be part of the scam?

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/0117152009/

I am saying someone has a signed book by these three that is legitimate and that as part of the scam, they faked three signatures. They swapped the original book out for a similar shape copy that they added three fake signatures on and got the Stan Lee label. Correct me though because I do not think that label was available in 2013.The notes don't seem a perfect match (the staples seem to be noted and the wear seems similar there but I cannot see the other bends). Again, amateur detective here. 

Is it a lot to suggest that they took the time to procure another copy in similar shape of JIM 85 and risk faking three signatures? Sure that sounds like a lot but we have already established this scam as pretty elaborate so why not?

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:06 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I am saying someone has a signed book by these three that is legitimate and that as part of the scam, they faked three signatures. They swapped the original book out for a similar shape copy that they added three fake signatures on and got the Stan Lee label. Correct me though because I do not think that label was available in 2013.The notes don't seem a perfect match (the staples seem to be noted and the wear seems similar there but I cannot see the other bends). Again, amateur detective here. 

Is it a lot to suggest that they took the time to procure another copy in similar shape of JIM 85 and risk faking three signatures? Sure that sounds like a lot but we have already established this scam as pretty elaborate so why not?

I follow you. Maybe a better scan of the earlier yellow label from 2013 will show up.

I don't know if the buyer has one, because he said he bought it quite a while ago, in person. I think it had the new label on it, by the time that he bought it.

I hate to add to his stress level. @Crimsonira

 

[comicginger1789]

On 1/9/2024 at 9:11 AM, sledgehammer said:

I follow you. Maybe a better scan of the earlier yellow label from 2013 will show up.

I don't know if the buyer has one, because he said he bought it quite a while ago, in person. I think it had the new label on it, by the time that he bought it.

I hate to add to his stress level. @Crimsonira

 

I havent; had the time to backtrack though but it sounds like people have narrowed it down to a shop? In Brooklyn? And a somewhat known seller (the scammer I mean)

So if said person was operating a business, they likely would not have operated buying and selling 100% of their books that were switched or swapped or whatever. Bound to be SOME legitimate sales amongst the trickery they used so hopefully this is one because as I mentioned, it would be quite elaborate.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:19 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I havent; had the time to backtrack though but it sounds like people have narrowed it down to a shop? In Brooklyn? And a somewhat known seller (the scammer I mean)

So if said person was operating a business, they likely would not have operated buying and selling 100% of their books that were switched or swapped or whatever. Bound to be SOME legitimate sales amongst the trickery they used so hopefully this is one because as I mentioned, it would be quite elaborate.

I don't know. I've already seen a photo of the owner of the shop, at a con, with the JIM in the background, from @ 5 years ago.

It had the new label then.

[GDN]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:52 PM, wiparker824 said:

Can anyone tell me why these 2 on the list:

3743694005

3743694008

and these 2 from the same sub have the status of “Rejected”:

3743694007

3743694006

Are these rejected reholder attempts? 

My guess is that was a 9.8 prescreen submission and 007 and 006 didn't make the cut.