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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,028 posts in this topic

shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted

I'm not sure why you think the Ewert scandal was bigger than this, but it doesn't really matter. 

I had my eye on five Ditko spideys at auctions this week. Four went for less than my target price.  As I didn't bid, the seller lost at least $5 on every book.  If I'd bid my maximums, the seller could have made perhaps $200 more.  This hobby isn't so big that a couple of hundred big collectors greatly reducing their BA/CA slab purchases won't have ripple effects.  The hobby/market revolves, and perhaps the era of blind faith in third-party companies is passing.

As some old guy once said.  It's not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end, but perhaps it is the end of the beginning.  I'm surprised it took this long for someone to counterfeit slabs, and now we find out they didn't have to.  I only own about two dozen CGC books, but they are all high value.  My long-term confidence in them as an investment has been shaken.  Just as importantly- I now need to be concerned with what I'd be selling. The book may be in a slab, but it's my reputation.

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bc

bc

Posted
Posted (edited)

So custom labels were introduced in July 2016 (thanks to whoever posted this earlier).

One of the better known board catches with custom label scams goes back to July 2020:

Not saying this could have been a catalyst for the current scammer, but it showed potential flaws with the "elective" reholder process.

Almost makes me want to graph out the dates that this scheme involved to see if there is a noticeable growth pattern around specific periods and custom label timeframes or changes to the ME process.

-bc

EDIT: It actually goes back farther than that:

 

Edited by bc
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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 2:35 PM, comicjel said:

Agreed, but I am concerned that this guy may have been doing this longer with higher value books being swapped out with restored books, and then gravitated to the less noticeable modern books that he could churn more.

The higher value books on CGCs list means he was likely getting those reholdered for "some" reason. 

 

I get it, and to be honest none of us no the answer and may never.

It would take a lot more capital though to try the bigger books.  I mean he or they aint doing it with an Action Comics #1. 

There is a reason they choose ASM copper books because they are common and to CGC are basically $1 books.

Reholdering an ASM 300 is not the same as a real expensive book.  I mean they possibly tried, but jury is still out on the vintage (AF 15 signed), but when you look at the list it mostly common books that everyone in their mothers owns 10 copies of.  I mean heck I have now 20 copies of ASM 300 raw.

The problem I have here is some are suggesting the holder is super easy to crack open this scandal is widespread, but yet there isnt one video showing just how easy it is too.  This was the easiest scam to have never had happened in the history of CGC.  Loophole is now closed or new protocols I am sure are in place.  Whether it was a group or it so many more books effected is all speculation at this point wouldnt you agree?

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Superman2006

Superman2006

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On 1/9/2024 at 3:29 PM, comicwiz said:

This is the way. If you're on IG, please post and show a sign of support on redacting the records, deleting does no one any good. I was heading out to my son's practices, but felt it important to post something about this as the disappearance of data is unwise, especially in situations such as these. 

gocollect-final.png

Not just directed to you since everyone seems to have read the gocollect statement in the same way, but I don't see where gocollect's statement indicates that they will be deleting records, instead they state they will "remove the threat" of buying a book that isn't what it claims to be by providing you with prior scans for a given cert #. At least that's the way I read it.

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 1/9/2024 at 2:41 PM, shadroch said:

I'm not sure why you think the Ewert scandal was bigger than this, but it doesn't really matter. 

I had my eye on five Ditko spideys at auctions this week. Four went for less than my target price.  As I didn't bid, the seller lost at least $5 on every book.  If I'd bid my maximums, the seller could have made perhaps $200 more.  This hobby isn't so big that a couple of hundred big collectors greatly reducing their BA/CA slab purchases won't have ripple effects.  The hobby/market revolves, and perhaps the era of blind faith in third-party companies is passing.

As some old guy once said.  It's not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end, but perhaps it is the end of the beginning.  I'm surprised it took this long for someone to counterfeit slabs, and now we find out they didn't have to.  I only own about two dozen CGC books, but they are all high value.  My long-term confidence in them as an investment has been shaken.  Just as importantly- I now need to be concerned with what I'd be selling. The book may be in a slab, but it's my reputation.

Because you can stop this but you cant stop a Jason Ewert type with the same level of protocols and safeguards. (shrug)

Maybe with AI?

Many buyers/sellers left after COVID and when interest rates went up.

Edited by NewWorldOrder
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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 2:39 PM, EastEnd1 said:

There are two HUGE differences between Ewert and this one.  The first is the one you mention, the requirement for Ewert to go through the gatekeeper.  The second is the exponential growth of social media in the intervening years.  From my recollection, the Ewert controversy was largely centered around the CGC board and if you weren't on this board, or well connected with the dealer circuit, there was a good chance you wouldn't have heard about it.  With social media today, word spreads like wildfire... even the casual collector can easily stumble across this one.  

Correct if social media was around back then like it is now.  OMG this thread would be up to 1000+ pages.

Every week for 4-7 years that thread was going and going.  Plus there were numerous other threads started weekly besides the main one.  It was nuts.

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shadroch

shadroch

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Posted

If the scammers managed to get a slab past CGC, what is to stop them from selling directly to the market?  Swapping a 6.0 PLOD of a key book for a blue label can be worth thousands.  The scam has been exposed. Not the scammers, and there is no reason to think they have stopped.

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comicjel

comicjel

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 5:47 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I get it, and to be honest none of us no the answer and may never.

It would take a lot more capital though to try the bigger books.  I mean he or they aint doing it with an Action Comics #1. 

There is a reason they choose ASM copper books because they are common and to CGC are basically $1 books.

Reholdering an ASM 300 is not the same as a real expensive book.  I mean they possibly tried, but jury is still out on the vintage (AF 15 signed), but when you look at the list it mostly common books that everyone in their mothers owns 10 copies of.  I mean heck I have now 20 copies of ASM 300 raw.

The problem I have here is some are suggesting the holder is super easy to crack open this scandal is widespread, but yet there isnt one video showing just how easy it is too.  This was the easiest scam to have never had happened in the history of CGC.  Loophole is now closed or new protocols I am sure are in place.  Whether it was a group or it so many more books effected is all speculation at this point wouldnt you agree?

I would agree - and do think CGC will do what is needed to have this type of scam stopped (hopefully resulting in a safer holder in the long run).

I guess I will just stay concerned until we know more and hopefully see someone / people indicted! 

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 1/9/2024 at 2:58 PM, shadroch said:

If the scammers managed to get a slab past CGC, what is to stop them from selling directly to the market?  Swapping a 6.0 PLOD of a key book for a blue label can be worth thousands.  The scam has been exposed. Not the scammers, and there is no reason to think they have stopped.

There are always scams in anything in life that money is involved 24/7.

 

Edited by NewWorldOrder
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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 2:25 PM, BrashL said:

I know you keep going back to this out of wishful thinking but it's a useless analogy. That was 20 years ago. CGC wasn't what it is today, the comic market wasn't what it is today, social media wasn't what it is today. I could go on. You keep using this silly straw man like it's some brilliant thought.

You keep coming back to doom and gloom and how your collecting life is over, which most think is silly.

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greggy

greggy

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 3:07 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

He is going to miss cocktail hour?  boooooooo

Are you going to be there for cocktail hour?

I wasn't sure if it was going to be worth it but I just do it to kill time if no one else is there yet. 

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 3:11 PM, greggy said:

Are you going to be there for cocktail hour?

I wasn't sure if it was going to be worth it but I just do it to kill time if no one else is there yet. 

Umm yeah I will be there starting Friday. :yeehaw:

Anymore questions just PM me because I dont want to the "sky is falling" boardies here to think we are bringing some fun & sunshine to their stormy mind to derail this thread.

image.png.f2cedaa3fb0f1e8818a18b91241c98ba.png

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 3:14 PM, mrd160 said:

Immaculate comics did a video showing exactly how easy it was to swap the books.

You mean the video that showed with the heat gun and how easy it was for even a novice to spot it was tampered with?

That one?

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mrd160

mrd160

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 6:16 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

You mean the video that showed with the heat gun and how easy it was for even a novice to spot it was tampered with?

That one?

For first try I thought it was pretty good imo lol 

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NewWorldOrder

NewWorldOrder

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Posted
On 1/9/2024 at 3:16 PM, mrd160 said:

For first try I thought it was pretty good imo lol 

It was lol

I give him that.

Yes I mean it wouldn't surprise me if they gotten it past some collectors for sure, but again who knows the real number.

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