ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[mjoeyoung]

I haven't had the time to watch the whole video yet?  Did he say that this was only confined to reholders?  Are they finding books that have not been reholdered that have subtle signs of tampering that previously fooled them?  I agree that if they know a telltale sign, that needs to be released.

[pdags]

On 1/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Well, it didn't make things worse...  But, I wasn't wholly impressed either.

[pdags]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:08 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I agree that if they know a telltale sign, that needs to be released.

They really need too... otherwise the assumption is it isn't obvious and can only be clearly identified with special equipment (stuff you don't typically have lying around the house).

If it is notable, sharing is the ethical thing to do.

Edited January 16 by pdags

[wiparker824]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:00 AM, Mikey C said:

The problem is, the book would have been reholdered and not shown signs of tampering. So this tells me they might have scans of books before they started making the images public to be able to tell? I’m confused by Matt’s answer.

I thought about this it’s really the only thing that makes sense… they’ve been imaging all books before and after reholders (without making them public) for years and then they are comparing those photos with the books in hand. 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:15 AM, pdags said:

Well, it didn't make things worse...  But, I wasn't wholly impressed either.

Well, I tried!

Certain people have said it wasn't punchy enough, well I'm not a journalist, nor do I invite people onto my channel to "gotcha" them. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:24 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Well, I tried!

Certain people have said it wasn't punchy enough, well I'm not a journalist, nor do I invite people onto my channel to "gotcha" them. 

FWIW I genuinely was impressed by both of you. We learned things we had not previously and a lot of the things people are demanding they answer we all know they won’t answer and you’ll just get the line of “I can’t divulge any details into an active investigation”, there’s not a lot of value in just asking them question after question where they just say that line. I thought you all did a good job in skirting around those so we didn’t have to hear that repeatedly and getting what information could be had.

[pdags]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:24 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Well, I tried!

I didn't mean to insult you or 9.9 (seriously) and I apologize if it came off that way.   There's only so much you can do in that situation without biting the hand feeding you, maintaining good relations, etc.

Matt chose what to address, how to answer, and his tone. 

Edited January 16 by pdags

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:29 AM, pdags said:

I didn't mean to insult you or 9.9 (seriously) and I apologize if it came off that way.   There's only so much you can do in that situation without biting the hand feeding you, maintaining good relations, etc.

Matt chose what to address, how to answer, and his tone. 

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, I think I've just been reading too many of the YT comments and that was an automatic defensive response.

I knew we were going to get careful answers but I think theres a level of at least we got something, still wanting more though

[Iconic1s]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:37 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, I think I've just been reading too many of the YT comments and that was an automatic defensive response.

I knew we were going to get careful answers but I think theres a level of at least we got something, still wanting more though

FWIW, I think you guys got what you could.  Best takeaway for me was that they do have a “big name” investigative firm on the case.  I was happy to hear they plan to take legal action as (in my mind) that is essential as a deterrent and to restore confidence.

I’ve been following this thread religiously and I have come to the conclusion that there are probably many more than 350 books affected but after this interview I think that is all we’re ever going to get CGC to admit to.

I hope they stay true to their word on the legal action.

At the very least it was reassuring to see Matt willing to sit in the hot seat for a few minutes and at least appear that CGC has nothing to hide. 
 

[MAR1979]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:26 PM, VintageComics said:

I'm kind of tired of watching a bunch of fanboys lathering each other up while spreading 10 mins of information into 2 hours.

As my multi-year self-imposed zero tolerance ban on youtube "influencer" videos continues, I did not watch , but based on comments in this thread, it appears the Interview with Matt Nelson was not a case of the above quote?

[EastEnd1]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:24 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Well, I tried!

Certain people have said it wasn't punchy enough, well I'm not a journalist, nor do I invite people onto my channel to "gotcha" them. 

I thought it was a great coup for you and Manu(?) to get Matt Nelson for an hour like that.  You guys kept it friendly and we certainly learned a number of new things, which was great... so well done!  Thank you Matt for sharing for such a long time and keeping the dialogue open with the community.  I certainly came away with the feeling that CGC recognizes the seriousness of the situation and is working it very hard.  I especially liked to hear that CGC intends to "prosecute" the culprit to the fullest extent of the law... and hopefully that happens in a very public way and has a deterrent effect on other wannabee scammers.  We look forward to hearing from you more as the investigation and improvements move forward.

One little piece of advice that I would give to the interviewers is what a very seasoned partner taught me when I first started my career in public accounting... "Ask open ended questions, never answer your own question, and always let the client do most of the talking.  You'll be surprised by how much you'll learn."   Not a criticism at all, just some friendly advice that served me well in my career when I was trying to information gather. 

[drotto]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:08 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I haven't had the time to watch the whole video yet?  Did he say that this was only confined to reholders?  Are they finding books that have not been reholdered that have subtle signs of tampering that previously fooled them?  I agree that if they know a telltale sign, that needs to be released.

He refused to say exactly how the 350 list was generated. He did not comment at all on what they are finding on books that have been returned to them, only what the procedure was once they got the books.  The only new information given was suspect books were being kept by CGC, and they were not cracking those books out. He implied they have other means they can use to evaluate books till in cases. It was not made clear what those methods were. 

 

I also suspect they do not want to crack books, because from a legal stand point it would destroy them as admissible evidence.  Legally, there must be a protocol to open those books in the presence of law enforcement that will maintain their credibility as evidence.  This was not made clear.

[MAR1979]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:12 PM, drotto said:

I also suspect they do not want to crack books, because from a legal stand point it would destroy them as admissible evidence.  Legally, there must be a protocol to open those books in the presence of law enforcement that will maintain their credibility as evidence.  This was not made clear.

CGC having the slab back in the first place would poison the chain. Especially as they have the requisite equipment and ability to do anything they like with the slabs

I think the only way the slabs would be admissible in court is if an entity like the FBI had collected the suspect slabs.

  @ThothAmon , curious on your interpretation.

Of course 0 chance this gets to a courtroom, Blackstone will do anything in their fiscal power to avoid being subject to a discovery process.

Edited January 16 by MAR1979

[J Bill]

Great video. Going to 9.9's last question/observation, I am curious how they can determine if a Hulk 181 has the value stamp while still in the holder. I'm not sure if they take photos of the interior prior to slabbing, but given that these aren't even the same books, that won't help. Some kind of x-ray? A special mark on the inner well? Thoughts?

[MatterEaterLad]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:24 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Well, I tried!

Certain people have said it wasn't punchy enough, well I'm not a journalist, nor do I invite people onto my channel to "gotcha" them. 

I thought it was great.

And a solid PR move since Matt was able to address a few concerns and also remind everyone that CGC isn't a faceless corporation, but populated with a lot of people who are lifelong comic enthusiasts. 

[thehumantorch]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:26 AM, J Bill said:

Great video. Going to 9.9's last question/observation, I am curious how they can determine if a Hulk 181 has the value stamp while still in the holder. I'm not sure if they take photos of the interior prior to slabbing, but given that these aren't even the same books, that won't help. Some kind of x-ray? A special mark on the inner well? Thoughts?

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

[J Bill]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:30 PM, thehumantorch said:

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

I would think so but Matt seems to indicate they have other methods, unless I'm misinterpreting?

[thehumantorch]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:35 AM, J Bill said:

I would think so but Matt seems to indicate they have other methods, unless I'm misinterpreting?

I haven't watched the video but can't imagine how they could determine the MVS was inside without inspection.  Or determine if the MVS was the correct stamp - a local dealer was selling a Hulk 181 that had the wrong MVS, married in from a Hulk 179.  When told he had the wrong MVS he tossed it in a box but continued to try to sell it without disclosing the married page.

[CJ Design]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:35 PM, J Bill said:

I would think so but Matt seems to indicate they have other methods, unless I'm misinterpreting?

Well yea...they have these...of course 

 

[pdags]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:30 PM, thehumantorch said:

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

I agree... but I know a guy that used to use a stud-finder to buy every pack-of-cards that had hologram or thicker card inside them.  CGC may be able to do something comparable...  Not saying a stud finder is the perfect solution, but CGC may have crafty ways to determine certain things.

For instance, a stud finder calibrated on a normal, slabbed book may alert on a slab with the same book but with a MJI (or a book with something else inside of it).  I'm Just saying, "there's a chance".   

Edited January 16 by pdags