ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[shadroch]

At this point, I'd demand my book back and keep all my options open. The book is needed as evidence in either a criminal or civil suit.

It doesn't belong to CGC and they have no right to keep your property.

Edited January 29 by shadroch

[sledgehammer]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:22 AM, awakeintheashes said:

When I pull up 3752510001, I get an ASM 194

It was a lazy sunday for me. 

I guess we'll find out what the odds are that somebody could pop that many ASM 300 9.8s, and even more if you look at this complete submission, also on the list, and sold on comiclink a few months after submission for over $6K.

3743694005

Here that one is in the ASM 300 thread.

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by sledgehammer

[comicwiz]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:26 AM, NEO Sports Cards said:

Given all this nonsense lately, between the reholder and 9.9 prescreen. Do you all think people would be accepting of PSA entering the comic grading space? 
 

 

 

 

Would PSA ever enter the Comic Grading space? Has CGC left the door wide open?
https://youtu.be/udYUoGQDZo4

PSA has a bigger problem with it's "flip tampering" - early Jan I posted something to this effect - more than ever before, it's become critical to have third-party/impartial historical data tracking, that's the only chance we have of identifying bad actors, market manipulation, and other deceptive practices given the current process and protocols graders are using. 

[comicwiz]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:56 AM, shadroch said:

At this point, I'd demand my book back and keep all my options open. The book is needed as evidence in either a criminal or civil suit.

It doesn't belong to CGC and they have no right to keep your property.

This

[Number 6]

On 1/29/2024 at 6:28 AM, Nick Furious said:

I don't mean to tell anyone what to do, but at this point, with receipt mentioned twice and no timeline, I think I would be responding back with my own politely worded reasonable request for compensation.  You did your part and complied quickly with their requests.  I don't think it would be unreasonable at this point to articulate some terms and conditions of your own.  Such as what you want, when you want it by and which obstacles (such as receipts) you find unacceptable.      

Ok, so I'm not the only one who read that response and it gave them pause.

So to make sure I understand this correctly:  CGC completely screwed up delivering on the most basic aspect of their guarantee (the book in the holder is actually what's represented by the label), and they now have the book in their possession that you paid for....and now you have to provide documentation on what you paid for it?  I can understand maybe asking for it, but making it a requirement before the process can go any further?   And if for some reason you don't have documentation, that's it?  You're SOL because there's no way your word would ever be good enough?

I personally make it a practice to try and hold on to receipts and packing slips that show what I paid for something.  But there are a couple of dealers that I've purchased from that are so old-school that they don't include any kind of paperwork with my purchase and the email correspondence is long gone.  And if buying at a con I could easily see a situation where receipts might get misplaced.  

I agree, I would be tempted to start demanding my property back.

[awe4one]

I come back to read a few threads and see this. Crazy.

Jim

[Badger]

Why are people getting bent out of shape over CGC asking for a receipt? Can anyone tell me an example of receiving a refund, from someone who did not sell the item in question, without being asked for a receipt? Seriously, it is the start of the refund conversation/dance. If you have a swapped 9.8 ASM #194, is CGC just supposed to send you a check for the last 90 day GPA average which is $2716? What if you are one of the poor souls who paid above $5,000 for your copy? How would CGC know this without a receipt?

Take a deep breath, settle your butt down in your sofa, deep breath, and explain you do not have a receipt but you bought the book from X for this much money at this auction, convention, or back alley. I have confidence that CGC will make you whole. They want this whole incident to fade into memory like the Ewert scandal. The best way to do this is to get the impacted people paid and hushed.

A better question would be that if you want your book back, how would CGC return it? Obviously they would have to return it but it has been broken out of the original holder for inspection. I feel they should grade it for free and offer to return it properly encased and graded. Would they do that or would they just send you your raw comic?

[DC#]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:29 AM, Number 6 said:

Ok, so I'm not the only one who read that response and it gave them pause.

So to make sure I understand this correctly:  CGC completely screwed up delivering on the most basic aspect of their guarantee (the book in the holder is actually what's represented by the label), and they now have the book in their possession that you paid for....and now you have to provide documentation on what you paid for it?  I can understand maybe asking for it, but making it a requirement before the process can go any further?   And if for some reason you don't have documentation, that's it?  You're SOL because there's no way your word would ever be good enough?

I personally make it a practice to try and hold on to receipts and packing slips that show what I paid for something.  But there are a couple of dealers that I've purchased from that are so old-school that they don't include any kind of paperwork with my purchase and the email correspondence is long gone.  And if buying at a con I could easily see a situation where receipts might get misplaced.  

I agree, I would be tempted to start demanding my property back.

I know this has been discussed already somewhere in these 300+ pages but not sure why this wouldn't work just like any other insurance with a payment based on replacement value.    you total your car - it is irrelevant what you paid for it.     You drop $4k on an ASM 300 that is now worth $3k based on pretty measurable results - pay the defrauded owner $3k and they can decide if they want to purchase a new ASM 300 or just keep the cash.  They were sitting on a $1k paper loss already - but can buy right back in that the current rates if that is a book they want.    90% of books on the list have pretty established sales data - almost weekly sales data.    And if you want to be very customer friendly - use a source like GPA 90 Day Average and offer that plus 10-15% to cover any slight variations in cost or other transaction costs.    

The less common books (signature series) may need to be handled on a case by case basis.  

Edited January 29 by DC#

[Mdesimone]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:58 PM, Badger said:

Why are people getting bent out of shape over CGC asking for a receipt? Can anyone tell me an example of receiving a refund, from someone who did not sell the item in question, without being asked for a receipt? Seriously, it is the start of the refund conversation/dance. If you have a swapped 9.8 ASM #194, is CGC just supposed to send you a check for the last 90 day GPA average which is $2716? What if you are one of the poor souls who paid above $5,000 for your copy? How would CGC know this without a receipt?

Take a deep breath, settle your butt down in your sofa, deep breath, and explain you do not have a receipt but you bought the book from X for this much money at this auction, convention, or back alley. I have confidence that CGC will make you whole. They want this whole incident to fade into memory like the Ewert scandal. The best way to do this is to get the impacted people paid and hushed.

A better question would be that if you want your book back, how would CGC return it? Obviously they would have to return it but it has been broken out of the original holder for inspection. I feel they should grade it for free and offer to return it properly encased and graded. Would they do that or would they just send you your raw comic?

 Because I purchased it in 2019 for 1645 dollars including tax and shipping. Gpa is around 3000 today, the next part to the receipt is that I bought it on eBay , and they removed it. I have no way of getting this receipt, and finally why bother saying you will be fairly compensated for any losses on the site and in a YouTube video then tell me we are working on how we will compensate you but give me a receipt so we can move forward with what we want to do…

[DC#]

On 1/29/2024 at 10:07 AM, Mdesimone said:

 Because I purchased it in 2019 for 1645 dollars including tax and shipping. Gpa is around 3000 today, the next part to the receipt is that I bought it on eBay , and they removed it. I have no way of getting this receipt, and finally why bother saying you will be fairly compensated for any losses on the site and in a YouTube video then tell me we are working on how we will compensate you but give me a receipt so we can move forward with what we want to do…

Again - what you purchased it for should be irrelevant.   You should get paid $3K because that is what it will cost you to replace it.     I used the car example before but the same works for home owners insurance.   You buy a house for $200k 30 years ago that is worth $3M today - your replacement cost is something much closer to $3M.   

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:12 PM, DC# said:

On 1/29/2024 at 12:07 PM, Mdesimone said:

Because I purchased it in 2019 for 1645 dollars including tax and shipping. Gpa is around 3000 today, the next part to the receipt is that I bought it on eBay , and they removed it. I have no way of getting this receipt, and finally why bother saying you will be fairly compensated for any losses on the site and in a YouTube video then tell me we are working on how we will compensate you but give me a receipt so we can move forward with what we want to do…

Again - what you purchased it for should be irrelevant.   You should get paid $3K because that is what it will cost you to replace it.     I used the car example before but the same works for home owners insurance.   You buy a house for $200k 30 years ago that is worth $3M today - your replacement cost is something much closer to $3M.   

Just spit-balling but what about people who paid at the height of the market, who's books are now worth less? My inclination of the benefit of the doubt with CGC, is if you bought at the height under the understanding that the CGC label was legit, you'd still get compensated....

I'm not sure that it is the current FMV or like insurance at all, if it is only worth $3000, but you bought it for 5k, I would want the 5k if cgc has any true guarantee  

[Mdesimone]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:12 PM, DC# said:

Again - what you purchased it for should be irrelevant.   You should get paid $3K because that is what it will cost you to replace it.     I used the car example before but the same works for home owners insurance.   You buy a house for $200k 30 years ago that is worth $3M today - your replacement cost is something much closer to $3M.   

That’s all I want but unfortunately I’m getting sit still and wait for us to to make any determination while they get tokeep my book for evidence, if they are true to their word then just tell me you will get fair market value, hell they can even go buy me a 9.0 and send me that

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:17 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just spit-balling but what about people who paid at the height of the market, who's books are now worth less? My inclination of the benefit of the doubt with CGC, is if you bought at the height under the understanding that the CGC label was legit, you'd still get compensated....

I'm not sure that it is the current FMV or like insurance at all, if it is only worth $3000, but you bought it for 5k, I would want the 5k if cgc has any true guarantee  

hence the need for a receipt

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:18 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 1/29/2024 at 12:17 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just spit-balling but what about people who paid at the height of the market, who's books are now worth less? My inclination of the benefit of the doubt with CGC, is if you bought at the height under the understanding that the CGC label was legit, you'd still get compensated....

I'm not sure that it is the current FMV or like insurance at all, if it is only worth $3000, but you bought it for 5k, I would want the 5k if cgc has any true guarantee  

hence the need for a receipt

Also to add that specific question was in the videos...

Matt Nelson didn't say "no" just that they would assess on an individual basis.... I wouldn't stop the discussion just because they asked in a preliminary way for a receipt to gather their bearings is all  

Edited January 29 by ADAMANTIUM

[DC#]

On 1/29/2024 at 10:17 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just spit-balling but what about people who paid at the height of the market, who's books are now worth less? My inclination of the benefit of the doubt with CGC, is if you bought at the height under the understanding that the CGC label was legit, you'd still get compensated....

I'm not sure that it is the current FMV or like insurance at all, if it is only worth $3000, but you bought it for 5k, I would want the 5k if cgc has any true guarantee  

I would agree if your book is not easily replaceable.   But if you can easily replace your lost copy at $3K then that is what they should pay you (plus hopefully some cushion).   Your effective cost is exactly the same as if this event never happened should you buy back in.   

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:24 PM, DC# said:

I would agree if your book is not easily replaceable.   But if you can easily replace your lost copy at $3K then that is what they should pay you (plus hopefully some cushion).   Your effective cost is exactly the same as if this event never happened should you buy back in.   

They should do it in good faith to save face, it is exactly what a near million dollar to billion dollar company would do, given they're sticking to only tree fiddy books. 

That is chump change, the least they could do, provided you can prove it with a receipt and aren't just trying to take advantage.

He didn't say no.

that is all I'm saying.

Some people didn't over pay and what other "case by case basis" would there be? Why wouldn't he just state replacement cost then?

[ADAMANTIUM]

@DC#

On 1/29/2024 at 12:24 PM, DC# said:

I would agree if your book is not easily replaceable.   But if you can easily replace your lost copy at $3K then that is what they should pay you (plus hopefully some cushion).   Your effective cost is exactly the same as if this event never happened should you buy back in.   

I'm not saying you're wrong  

I'm just saying it wouldn't be out of the question if you could prove it with a receipt

Edited January 29 by ADAMANTIUM

[awe4one]

Forgive me for asking but I don’t have time to read through 377 pages. What exactly happened here? Did a person break out a slab and replace a comic before resealing a slab or did someone have a replacement slab and placed a comic in it with the label? I know whenever I broke out a comic from a slab you would know it. I know this topic has probably evolved from the first post so I don’t want to distract from the discussion. If you can message me with an explanation it would be appreciated.

Jim

[Mdesimone]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

They should do it in good faith to save face, it is exactly what a near million dollar to billion dollar company would do, given they're sticking to only tree fiddy books. 

That is chump change, the least they could do, provided you can prove it with a receipt and aren't just trying to take advantage.

He didn't say no.

that is all I'm saying.

Some people didn't over pay and what other "case by case basis" would there be? Why wouldn't he just state replacement cost then?

I have provided them with a credit card statement weeks ago it even has the eBay sellers name on it, I’m still here with no “compensation “  because it seems like they haven’t made any decisions on what compensation  really is

[DC#]

On 1/29/2024 at 10:27 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

They should do it in good faith to save face, it is exactly what a near million dollar to billion dollar company would do, given they're sticking to only tree fiddy books. 

That is chump change, the least they could do, provided you can prove it with a receipt and aren't just trying to take advantage.

He didn't say no.

that is all I'm saying.

Some people didn't over pay and what other "case by case basis" would there be? Why wouldn't he just state replacement cost then?

I can get behind that as a customer service approach.   Especially if this list of +300 books is truly the scope.     A policy could be the higher of replacement value or purchase price - if no valid receipt or proof of purchase in some form then you get replacement value + 10%.