ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comeaux]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:29 AM, comicguy123 said:

These are the same book. 9.0 Universal became 9.4 Universal Windy City pedigree copy. Book has been color touched and half inch tear repaired on back cover. How can a book go from 9.0 Universal, get color touched and tear restored, and become 9.4 Universal  Pedigree? 

Shenanigans like this with valuations at this level can only be sanctioned by those at the highest level within CGC.

[jas1vans]

If somebody had one of these mis-slabbed books, wouldn't they be better served keeping the book and filing a suit against the perps and CGC together?

I had an issue with a home purchase and had to threaten a suit against my realtor, the seller, and the seller's realtor. In the end, all three agreed to pay a portion instead of take it to court and sort out who was most to blame.

Couldn't BOTH be seen as liable for the situation? Scammers for scamming, CGC for missing the scam?

Would the book give the owner more leverage to get a solution than sending it to CGC, where they are then at the mercy of CGC's timeline?

[comeaux]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:29 AM, comicguy123 said:

These are the same book. 9.0 Universal became 9.4 Universal Windy City pedigree copy. Book has been color touched and half inch tear repaired on back cover. How can a book go from 9.0 Universal, get color touched and tear restored, and become 9.4 Universal  Pedigree?

@comicwiz how do you think something like this happens? Surely with a book of this value, CGC would have to be pulling the strings? 

[Nick Furious]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:02 AM, jas1vans said:

If somebody had one of these mis-slabbed books, wouldn't they be better served keeping the book and filing a suit against the perps and CGC together?

I had an issue with a home purchase and had to threaten a suit against my realtor, the seller, and the seller's realtor. In the end, all three agreed to pay a portion instead of take it to court and sort out who was most to blame.

Couldn't BOTH be seen as liable for the situation? Scammers for scamming, CGC for missing the scam?

Would the book give the owner more leverage to get a solution than sending it to CGC, where they are then at the mercy of CGC's timeline?

Even in the case of the most expensive book, I can't see how the owner would be better of financially by going through the courts rather than taking the compensation from CGC.  Lot's of expenses with no guarantees.  Might just end up losing twice.  

[comicjel]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:29 AM, comicguy123 said:

These are the same book. 9.0 Universal became 9.4 Universal Windy City pedigree copy. Book has been color touched and half inch tear repaired on back cover. How can a book go from 9.0 Universal, get color touched and tear restored, and become 9.4 Universal  Pedigree?

Is it definitely a tear seal on the back, and not just a successful press of a rough area?

Looks like it could just be a heavy clean and press.

Edited February 11 by comicjel

[comicguy123]

This is a new issue entirely, and I cannot see how it could be done outside of CGC. 

This is a 1.2 million dollar book we are talking about. It was carefully doctored, by a very high level restorer. The tear repair is visible but very tight, and the color touch is obvious only when comparison is done side by side.

The biggest issue to me is that not only did it bump from 9.0 to 9.4 after restoration, but it was certified as part of the Windy City pedigree as well. This would have to be very high level inside actors to do this.

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:46 AM, comicguy123 said:

The original 9.0 Universal 0071944001 sold 10-14-2005 for $161,000.

After the restoration and color touch,

The 9.4 Windy City Pedigree,marked as Universal 1625297003 sold 11-21-2019 for $1.26 million.

The Marvel Comics #1 Windy City Copy actually started out as an 8.5 in 2003, they were all sold without pedigree status, it was then bumped to 9.0, then it finally got a proper pedigree a few years ago (I don't think CGC even recognized it as a pedigree until later)

So yeah... They are both the windy city copies, and was boosted to a 9.4 after some obvious and serious major cleaning and pressing.

The tear on the back I think is a wrinkle pressed the life out of.

This kind of stuff has been happening for ever, in all collectibles, it is the very sad state of MONEY rules, but it's not technically a scam, and has nothing to do with swapping thank God.

[comicjel]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:51 AM, comicguy123 said:

This is a new issue entirely, and I cannot see how it could be done outside of CGC. 

This is a 1.2 million dollar book we are talking about. It was carefully doctored, by a very high level restorer. The tear repair is visible but very tight, and the color touch is obvious only when comparison is done side by side.

The biggest issue to me is that not only did it bump from 9.0 to 9.4 after restoration, but it was certified as part of the Windy City pedigree as well. This would have to be very high level inside actors to do this.

There is a CGC 2 page board thread from 2012 called "Marvel Comics #1 Windy City Copy Identified" (I do not know how to link threads??), but when you read the the 20 or so posts, it "does" sound legit that this was the Windy City copy - there are photos of the book from the 1980s from the original purchaser of the Windy City collection, and it looks to be the same book.  So the "pedigree" aspect seems ok.

Funny though, the posters back in 2012 seem to be surprised it was a 9.0 and not lower!  

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:12 AM, awakeintheashes said:

So this doesn’t get lost in what this thread is about, I’d start a new thread dedicated to this book and issue. I think it warrants it. 

No it's all known, they are both the same and both the same Windy City Copy, just some major pressing and cleaning..MAJOR LOL

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:13 AM, HighGrade said:

No it's all known, they are both the same and both the same Windy City Copy, just some major pressing and cleaning..MAJOR LOL

Yeah, I looked back and saw it’s been discussed already. Remembered references to it before…coffee hadn’t kicked in. 

[shadroch]

I believe Abe Lincoln said there is more rotten cheese in Denmark than meets the eye.

[comicguy123]

Look at photos. Tear on back was complete paper separation. This was not just pressed. The paper in the area it the tear is also much lighter color and inconsistent with surrounding paper. Reaction to a liquid or chemical..clearly restoration.

There are hundreds of color touch spots I have found,look closely at wording including 'Kazar' at lower left. Extensive color touch.

There is zero mention of restoration or color touch on label- it is a Universal Pedigree label.I have even seen blue labels that specify light color touch, but this book has extensive amounts of it, and restoration on back cover. 

 

[lou_fine]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:11 AM, HighGrade said:

The Marvel Comics #1 Windy City Copy actually started out as an 8.5 in 2003, they were all sold without pedigree status, it was then bumped to 9.0, then it finally got a proper pedigree a few years ago (I don't think CGC even recognized it as a pedigree until later)

So yeah... They are both the windy city copies, and was boosted to a 9.4 after some obvious and serious major cleaning and pressing.

The tear on the back I think is a wrinkle pressed the life out of.

This kind of stuff has been happening for ever, in all collectibles, it is the very sad state of MONEY rules, but it's not technically a scam, and has nothing to do with swapping thank God.

Yes indeed, a very sad state as per an exceprt from a post that I had written the other week:  

On 1/21/2024 at 9:41 PM, lou_fine said:

..........

I just find it kind of ironic though that although one of the original tenets of CGC was to protect the hobby from the scourge of restoration, we now find ourselves with a grading system that rewards those who partake in hidden and undisclosed manipulation of books while punishing those who choose not to partake in it.  Although it has often been stated that CGC has raised the level of grading to a new standard in the marketplace, I wonder if it can also be argued at the same time that CGC has also brought the hobby's collecting base down to a "controlled" version of what Borock used to call the dreaded days of the Wild Wild West. 

One clear example of this being this Okajima copy of Shadow Comics V4#1 here that appears to be in virtually the same condition wise at least from a strict visual POV without actually having it in hand, and yet can actually jump 6 grade increments from CGC 7.0 up to CGC 9.4.  This would indicate to me not so much that there is anything majorly wrong with the book itself to warrant this significant grade difference, but more so that the grading system that we now have in place has been mangled and bent so much so just in order to target the additional revenue generating defects. 

I imagine it's clearly about the dollar signs here and the current grading system means so much more money for all parties involved who chooses to play the game.  I guess it's really a case of to each their own, but being an old school type of collector, I personally wished CGC had made certification all about just grading the darn book the way it is, instead of making it all about maximizing its potential before having the book graded.  Then again, it is what it is, so if you want to have your books ceritified without being pummeled when it comes to that number in the top left hand corner, you really need to know the rules and sadly play the game accordingly. 

So, while the boys at CGC are busy prepping for their next huge money making but labor intensive and very costly (for the submittors of course) CGC 9.9 pre-screening service, I've already got my steamroller on hold along with a huge gigantic size bottle of Mr. Clean to ensure that I'll have the flattest and cleanest books to ever cross a CGC grading light table.  

Definitely NOT the same as the current scam that is being discussed here, but clearly a sign that we should all understand how the game is being play and go in with our eyes wide opened when we buy these high dollar value and so-called high grade books. Especially when we have even seen books step laddered "legally" all the way up from a mere CGC 9.0 to a CGC 9.8, or in one extreme example which started this whole pressing debate some 20 odd years ago when we first found out on these very boards here what was happening behind the CGC grading scene, a book go from CGC 4.0 all the way to CGC 9.0 with a pit stop at CGC 7.5, all whilst encased in a blue Universal slab.  

As the old saying on these boards goes to avoid these kinds of issues........................BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL.  

Edited February 11 by lou_fine

[EastEnd1]

I'm not so sure that that's a tear at the back cover staple.  The images are pretty blurry, but you can see that the area is soiled in the first picture and what appears to be a tear can very simply be soiling to some raised creasing.  The second image obviously shows that the area has been cleaned (and likely pressed... even spot pressed) making the crease much less noticeable... but you can still see remnants of it if you look closely even in the blurry image.   

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:43 AM, lou_fine said:

Yes indeed, a very sad state as per an exceprt from a post that I had written the other week:  

Definitely NOT the same as the current scam that is being discussed here, but clearly a sign that we should all understand how the game is being play when we buy these high dollar value and so-called high grade books, especially when we have even seen books step laddered "legally" all the way up from a mere CGC 9.0 to a CGC 9.8, or in one extreme example which started this whole pressing debate some 20 odd years ago, a book go from CGC 4.0 all the way to CGC 9.0 with a pit stop at CGC 7.5, all whilst encased in a blue Universal slab.  

As the old saying on these boards goes to avoid these kinds of issues........................BUY THE BOOK, NOT THE LABEL.  

Yeah, pressing the life out of a book and cleaning it like crazy is not technically a scam, I was one of the ones who was against it, but some people made some good points and I converted to accepting it. So yeah we know this goes on and it drove me crazy with coins, the bumps, adding entirely new grades to the scale, money changes everything, big money changes everything and everyone.

100% buy the book, but you know what, I have purchased grade bumped books, and I knew it and was fine with it (as long as I agree with the new grade)  But it gets funny looking at GPA because you see the same pedigree 9.2, then 9.4 then 9.6...you can watch it happen.  I will say I have many pedigrees from back in 2003, and a LOT of the can be pressed and cleaned to higher grades since many were not pressed back then!

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:51 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I'm not so sure that that's a tear at the back cover staple.  The images are pretty blurry, but you can see that the area is soiled in the first picture and what appears to be a tear can very simply be soiling to some raised creasing.  The second image obviously shows that the area has been cleaned (and likely pressed... even spot pressed) making the crease much less noticeable... but you can still see remnants of it if you look closely even in the blurry image.   

Yeah, I downloaded the highest res images and looked on my 5k monitor of all 3 the 8.5, 9.0 and 9.4, It's not a tear, it's a dirty wrinkle also the light blows out certain parts of the image making it look weird on some scans. But man, what cleaning that book had, I mean at least twice, and pressed extremely well, I feel sorry for the original owner, it was not cleaned or pressed, but back the it was still a questionable practice, people were against it for sure.

Still a lot of those Windy City books out there without the pedigree label, and most likely not cleaned or pressed...money waiting to happen.

[comicguy123]

Even if that is a dirty wrinkle which it does not appear to be...

There are countless color touches all over the book...countless spots filled in, areas overlaid, words and letters filled in. It has no mention of it on the label. 

Their own rules about defining restoration seem to change according to their vested interest.

 

[comicguy123]

Also...the area of the'wrinkle' or 'tear' on back are at top and bottom of staple,indicating a pull of cover away from staple. It would not wrinkle at both places. 

 

[comicjel]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:40 PM, comicguy123 said:

Also...the area of the'wrinkle' or 'tear' on back are at top and bottom of staple,indicating a pull of cover away from staple. It would not wrinkle at both places. 

 

Actually, I think the opposite - I can not picture how tears would happen there in that way - but we can only tell so much from scans - so it is hard to settle anything on this!

Suffice that it appears to be a generous 9.4!

 

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:36 PM, comicguy123 said:

Even if that is a dirty wrinkle which it does not appear to be...

There are countless color touches all over the book...countless spots filled in, areas overlaid, words and letters filled in. It has no mention of it on the label. 

Their own rules about defining restoration seem to change according to their vested interest.

 

I'm not seeing any color touches at all, did you get the high res scan off heritage? I DL the 8.5, 9.0 and the 9.4 and compared all 3, I know the 8.5 wasn't touched, not even cleaned, and there is no differences, no color touches at all.

It's great to be on the lookout for swaps, but this is not any part of a swap and has nothing to do with the scam, those 3 sales are all legit, the book was cleaned and pressed twice and got the pedigree label after being recognized as the Windy City copy, I think it was talked about in another thread.

So I don't know what your seeing but just have a look at the "high resolution" images on heritage of the 8.5 that was not even cleaned, then the 9.4, no color touches, I mean if you were going to color touch, you would do it to that tiny bottom staple tear with a touch of blue, but nothing is colored touched? you can never be 100% from scans, but there is no color touches on that book, you know how many serious collectors have touched that book? 

Anyway this is not a swap, it's all known. Now is it a 9.4 after all the cleaning pressing? that could be up for debate, but not restoration. I would be more concerned with the heavy cleaning myself, but it's nice book, I personally like the pay copy better, I don't mind the writing though.