ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sd2416]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:47 PM, comicjel said:

I could have actually rationalized that they might "not" have had an inside person if the scam was limited to reholder books, and if many of their original summitted 9.8s looked to be strong 9.8s and were almost always reholdered before sold - that would have made sense and seemed plausible to me.

The problem was, and the reason I think there must have been someone on the inside, was that many of the originally submitted books that received 9.8 were not strong 9.8s (IMO) and were just sold instead of being reholdered (which really made no sense if the scam was to reholder inferior swapped books).  To me the inside guy was more (or equally) for the originally submitted (generous) grades than for the reholdering aspect - and maybe this evolved more recently.

But then, there also seemed to be a reholder person that was changing labels from non-MJI to MJI; and non-newstand to newstand, apparently without checking the original scans (or notes) and, as I emphasized in an earlier post, the part of this label changing swap that I found more difficult to accept, was not that the reholder department might be somewhat lax with such label changes (I could accept that pretty easily), but more so that the outside scammer would have felt comfortable that they would not be discovered by attempting this type of swap / label change... how could the outside scammers feel so bold with such a risky label change, that you would almost expect to be scrutinized more, unless they had someone on the inside?

Now enter Mr. Terrazas, based on the recent filing... he is a grader (check) and he had access to reholdering books (check) and he was able to print labels for reholdered books that did not match the book being reholdered (check) and he had a spouse who had internal access as well (check) - if you were to search for the perfect inside guy for what we see happening, this would be your "one stop" inside guy! (or certainly someone with similar access).

Now consider the case brought against the Terrazas'... what was it, 23 stolen books? - huge deal I agree!; graded (by someone else), and then reholdered with incorrect (higher grade) labels - horrible I agree!.  But how many of you attorneys out there feel that CGC would have brought this type of "public" filing for these 23 books (after they were already fired)? - to me this case had a reason that went beyond getting this already fired couple to return the remaining (if any) books that they had not already sold (or to try to get a recovery from them).  I just don't see this lawsuit (including the timing) being pursued if they were independent of the outside scammers.

There are other things...

- SS books that seem involved somehow (by both inside and outside scammers)

- Unbelievable quick turn around times on things

- Grader notes on 9.8s that seem unusual 

So yes, I feel there must have been an inside guy, and I feel it was possibly Mr. Terrazas or someone with similar access (just my opinion based on 401 pages of reading!) 

    

   

  

 

I may have missed it, have they identified the 23 stolen books?

[comicjel]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:33 AM, sd2416 said:

I may have missed it, have they identified the 23 stolen books?

Not to my knowledge - I recall there was talk of a FF #5 in low grade that was possibly one of them.

[jas1vans]

On 2/8/2024 at 8:37 PM, comeaux said:

There was definitely an inside man and also an outside man who had special privileges at CGC above others. When he submits books for reholder, he doesn’t even send in the book in a broken/cracked case, he just sends in a book and a label and CGC does the deed for him. I can’t mention his name or I get another week vacation, it upsets the natives.   

 

On 2/8/2024 at 8:53 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Ya that was alarmingly stated and I'm glad it was, very relevant too, but I didnt think it was very recent. I had heard something like it a long time ago, but from older forum boardies, that I had assumed was early 2000's cgc business and not recent

 

 

On 2/9/2024 at 7:03 AM, comicwiz said:

Thank-you for sharing this, because I knew about this as well. 

Wait, what!?

So, since the early 2000's there have been people who have had special access to get to skip the process? To certify valuable collectables? And this is only the second time there has been a big, somebody's been slabbing comics that might not match the label scandal? (Trimming being the first one. I only read about it, didn't live through it.)

I am not shocked that there is a group of people with special access. I am surprised there isn't more vocal backlash against it, especially after reading the venom that flew around in some of those older threads.

[brute_nm]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:16 AM, jas1vans said:

 

 

Wait, what!?

So, since the early 2000's there have been people who have had special access to get to skip the process? To certify valuable collectables? And this is only the second time there has been a big, somebody's been slabbing comics that might not match the label scandal? (Trimming being the first one. I only read about it, didn't live through it.)

I am not shocked that there is a group of people with special access. I am surprised there isn't more vocal backlash against it, especially after reading the venom that flew around in some of those older threads.

@CGC Mike, can we get an updated statement? Any comment on the 2 lawsuits? What's the status of the hot 350 list? When can affected people expect to get paid or their book(s) back? Bueller? Bueller?

The rumor mill is kicking into overdrive.

[comicwiz]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:39 AM, brute_nm said:

@CGC Mike, can we get an updated statement? Any comment on the 2 lawsuits? What's the status of the hot 350 list? When can affected people expect to get paid or their book(s) back? Bueller? Bueller?

The rumor mill is kicking into overdrive.

As a follow-up request if I might - @CGC Mike I had not heard from you on the last matter, and you indicated you were sending me a note.

If I might add to the last request please - I'd like for CGC to either colour code the strikethroughs in a way where we can discern books that have been reviewed, and are known to be tampered, from those it strikesthrough that have been reviewed and are fine. 

I'd also like to understand in situations where books from the impacted list have the request on the cert look-up to contact CGC reportfraud@collectiblesgroup.com - in such instances, what does the NG or removal of grade signify? 

Thank-you 

[CGC Mike]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:16 AM, comicwiz said:

As a follow-up request if I might - @CGC Mike I had not heard from you on the last matter, and you indicated you were sending me a note.

My exact words were "I sent a note"  Meaning I sent a note to the team.  I did receive this:

I don’t know when exactly this notation was added, but I know that it’s been there for a while – it’s definitely not something that we added recently. We have similar verbiage for every collectible on every CCG website.

[comicwiz]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:19 PM, CGC Mike said:

My exact words were "I sent a note"  Meaning I sent a note to the team.  I did receive this:

I don’t know when exactly this notation was added, but I know that it’s been there for a while – it’s definitely not something that we added recently. We have similar verbiage for every collectible on every CCG website.

Thank-you for the clarification.

[justafan]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:04 AM, Nick Furious said:

I think I get what you are saying.  It's possible that when the scammer bought or received a legit 9.8, he only cracked out the ones he was most comfortable could be regraded at 9.8.  The scam would lose significant value if the original 9.8 came back as 9.6 when submitted a second, third or fourth time.  

This is 100% correct. When he was inquiring about my asm 238 newsstand copy, just before agreeing to buy it he asked me if it was a "strong 9.8 or weak?"

I thought it odd at the time but now it makes total sense.

[comicjel]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:29 PM, justafan said:

This is 100% correct. When he was inquiring about my asm 238 newsstand copy, just before agreeing to buy it he asked me if it was a "strong 9.8 or weak?"

I thought it odd at the time but now it makes total sense.

If he had no insider... he would be limited to just a reholder scam, and need to purchase strong 9.8s to be able to consistently get 9.8 over and over on the same "master" books, before swapping them out with the inferior books - and getting custom labels would be the best cover for so much reholdering.

If he had an inside reholder person... he could more safely do the above, as well as get more exotic with his scams, including labels comfortably switched from non-MJI to MJI; and non-newstand to newstand without the concern of the extra scrutiny that may accompany such swaps / label changes.

If he had an inside grader... he could count on generous grading and only need reholdering to subsidiize the scam as needed.

If he had both... he could:

- create a s-load of inferior 9.8s over a relatively short period of time

- dabble in SS book upgrades (and who knows what else with SS books??)

- accomplish green to blue much more efficiently (and safer)

Edited February 10 by comicjel

[comicwiz]

FF 48 CGC 5.5 - UNLISTED  ⬇️

Reading about unlisted books from CGC's 350 impact list being treated "differently" is both perplexing and disappointing.

I thought it was time to share at least one I found, applying some details on the retrospective and current comparabiles analysis for books impacted by this "holder tampering." The purpose here is to use this unlisted book as an example of how one might arrive at a valuation suitable for redress and/or compensation.

While the serial number from the ComicVerify badge below is a sample, the data is live, and the screenshot takes you right to the sample appraisal and assessment, with notations, working links to diagrams, etc. Full disclosure, ComicVerify is an online appraisal service I began in March of 2022, along with an appraisal service called ToyVerify. It allowed me to streamline reports, and uses proprietary software I developed which helps accelerate the process of calculating comps for a desired valuation method, as well as offering real-time reporting, accessible in a digital format.

Certification: 0212408029 (NOT ON THE LIST)

Fantastic Four (1961) #48 CGC 5.5

Beginning first with the screenshot of the Cert for posterity:

 

Based on the assessment arrived at, replacement value would be the method of valuation best suited to handle the market fluctuations seen from the time the book was sold in Jan 2019, and the current day, where consumers are being made aware of an alleged incident involving "holder tampering."

Click screenshot below to visit the online appraisal for further details

Additional notes for comparison, review, and posterity:

Sales history, this FF 48 appears 3 times for sale, the order that follows is from the first appearance of this cert to the last

1. 202507080375 | ebay | the.boss | 11/28/2018 | $1,100

Second appearance (This is when we notice a change of the book inside the holder, while keeping the same certification number)

2. 283298999496 | ebay | alleged seller | 12/18/2018 | $1,025

Third attempt is less than a month from the last time this appeared, same seller attemping to sell - as such, this sale is redacted as an outlier, despite it appearing as a valid recorded past sale comparable for FF 48 CGC 5.5.

3.  283323890210 sellerID: alleged seller Cert: 0212408029 [1/8/2019] - $1,110

 

 

Edited February 19 by comicwiz

[WernerVonDoom]

My FF #2 was impacted - didn't expect that. Waiting on resolution.

[brute_nm]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:51 PM, comicwiz said:

Reading about unlisted books from CGC's 350 impact list being treated "differently" is both perplexing and disappointing. I thought it was time to share at least one I found, applying some details on the retrospective and current comparabiles analysis for books impacted by this "holder tampering." The purpose here is to use this unlisted book as an example of how one might arrive at a valuation suitable for redress and/or compensation.

While the serial number from the ComicVerify badge below is a sample, the data is live, and the screenshot takes you right to the sample appraisal and assessment, with notations, working links do diagrams, etc. Full disclosure, ComicVerify is an online appraisal service I began in March of 2022, along with an appraisal service called ToyVerify. It allowed me to streamline reports, and uses proprietary software I developed which helps accelerates the process of calculating comps for a desired valuation method, as well as offering real-time reporting, accessible in a digital format.

Certification: 0212408029 (NOT ON THE LIST)

Fantastic Four (1961) #48 CGC 5.5

Beginning first with the screenshot of the Cert for posterity:

 

Based on the assessment arrived at, replacement value would be the method of valuation best suited to handle the market fluctuations seen from the time the book was sold in Jan 2019, and the time which the current day, where consumers are being made aware of an alleged incident involving "holder tampering."

Click screenshot below to visit the online appraisal for further details

Additional notes for comparison, review, and posterity:

Sales history, this FF 48 appears 3 times for sale, the order that follows is from the first appearance of this cert to the last

1. 202507080375 | ebay | the.boss | 11/28/2018 | $1,100

Second appearance (This is when we notice a change of the book inside the holder, still keeping with the same certification number)

2. 283298999496 | ebay | briva3 | 12/18/2018 | $1,025

Third attempt is less than a month from the last time this appeared, same seller attemping to sell - as such, this sale is redacted as an outlier, despite it appearing as a valied recorded past sale comparable for FF 48 CGC 5.5.

3.  283323890210 sellerID: briva3 Cert: 0212408029 [1/8/2019] - $1,110

 

 

@CGC Mike sorry to keep hounding on the same point, but: is there a reason why the entire list of Zunello/Comic Book Station's submissions has not been released?  I understand that it will create a bunch of extra verification work for CGC, to now have to verify ~2000 slabs instead of ~350, but better safe than sorry, right?

The Zanello lawsuit states that there were times where CGC did NOT reholder a swapped book before it was sold and @comicwiz has examples of such.  If we know that there are fraudulent slabs in circulation, why not release the list?

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:39 AM, brute_nm said:

The rumor mill is kicking into overdrive.

CGC-350 is an inside job! The facilities aren't really in Florida, they are in a soundstage in Nebraska! There was a grader on the Grassy Knoll! The military at Area 51 is reverse engineering alien heat guns! Elvis isn't dead, he's living in Oregon as a guy named Mike! Matt Nelson had been replaced with a Mandroid!

We need answers!

Edited February 10 by Dr. Balls

[comicjel]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:26 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

My FF #2 was impacted - didn't expect that. Waiting on resolution.

That sucks!!! - sorry!!

Looks like a nice! 7.5... I suspect the book inside likely has a coupon or page clipped out or maybe resto

[comicwiz]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:26 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

My FF #2 was impacted - didn't expect that. Waiting on resolution.

This is one of those that had the grade removed, and became a strikethrough. It's dependent on people like you to update the community, which helps us make sense of what we are looking at, because CGC refuses to address these changes without any update or announcement. I don't understand why this is so difficult for CGC to do right. Screenshots are for posterity.

And this did pass through seller zaneglor, one of the eBay accounts alleged to be involved in this "holder tampering."

Edited February 10 by comicwiz

[JollyComics]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:26 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

My FF #2 was impacted - didn't expect that. Waiting on resolution.

I saw the grader notes.

[HighGrade]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:23 PM, comicwiz said:

This is one of those that had the grade removed, and became a strikethrough. It's dependent on people like you to update the community, which helps us make sense of what we are looking at, because CGC refuses to address these changes without any update or announcement. I don't understand why this is so difficult for CGC to do right. Screenshots are for posterity.

And this did pass through seller zaneglor, one of the eBay accounts alleged to be involved in this "holder tampering."

Yeah, it didn't match the grader notes, so another reason why grader notes even mundane but giving a little description is important, Also images for all the books is a must to be put up.  And going forward when doing a reholder...PLEASE leave the original image up! and the new reholder image, keep both up, all images need to be shown and kept up for full transparency and to give buyers peace of mind when buying.

[comeaux]

[comicguy123]

Will be in interesting to see what involvement CBS ultimately had, and how liable they may really end up  being. The pics on Instagram show lots of copies of affected books,albeit raw...

which begs the question- how easy would it be to produce inner wells that match the ones CGC is using? I cracked open an Avengers V2#1 recently, and was surprised how crudely the inner well was in fact produced. It looks easy to make.

Just a thought..

[comicguy123]

Looks like the Fantastic Four book cgc7.5 was on ebay sold  on Feb 6,2020. Has that book you see there, in the holder. Same book.