ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[shadroch]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:56 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

HUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH??????? Where did I say that?

Of course CGC slabs were comprised.  I just am not making up numbers out my arse.

Still waiting on you to rebuttal me on my 100K example on the Hulk 181's.

 

Why? Did you think we were having a discussion? Post all the hypotheticals you want, someone might take the bait.

[comicwiz]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:51 PM, shadroch said:

It's the opposite. You think none of the slabs can be compromised, which flies in the face of all available information. 

 

 

 

On 2/20/2024 at 4:52 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

So you are saying without a doubt 1000's of CGC slabs have for sure been tampered with?

You must understand, I am probably more ahead of most, including CGC here. I have done number crunching on the 350 list, with financial tolls. I have provided data specifically showing the ratio of books the alleged seller has on the 350 list. Those start from 2016, but the real breakout years are 2017/2018. After 2017, they have over 50% of the books, 2017 has 71%, and 2023 has 88%. Their lawsuit claims they used the 2000+ submission data to arrive at the toll of $4M in damages. My calculations show this is incongruent with the 350 totals. That should have been the point most would realize something doesn't add up.

You can"t file in that self-serving manner without catching some attention - and that leads to questions  where it appears to be backed by and intent to bolster the impact of the damage to make their case stronger.

Unless you want to play both sides, where the courts are seeing it as a large scale assault on your reputation, trademark and brand, while simultaneously attempting to minimize the appearance of scale with customers using a narrative of a constantly narrowing 350 list to limit their financial exposure.

Edited February 20 by comicwiz

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:02 PM, comicwiz said:

 

You must understand, I am probably more ahead of most, including CGC here. I have done number crunching on the 350 list, with financial tolls. I have provided data specifically showing the ratio of books the alleged seller has on the 350 list. Those start from 2016, but the real breakout years are 2017/2018. After 2017, they have over 50% of the books, 2017 has 71%, and 2023 has 88%. Their lawsuit claims they used the 2000+ submission data to arrive at the toll of $4M in damages. My calculations show this is incongruent with the 350 totals. That should have been the point most would realize something doesn't add up. You can file in that self-serving manner, where you want to bolsters the impact of the damage to make your case stronger, but then use an "overestimated" tally of the 350 list, which is seemingly narrowing. Unless you want to play both sides, where the courts are seeing it as a large scale assault on your reputation, trademark and brand, but you're intent is to minimize the appearance of scale with customers with a narrative of a constantly narrowing 350 list to limit their financial exposure.

My friend you have done a great job, seriously you have helped the hobby a lot. 

I am not saying your work is invalid, and most of my posts are not even remotely directed at you.  

However, I am just saying I have no idea how many books were effected or the real scale of it.  Many are posting with emotion and complete speculation, as more facts come out then of course I readjust how I view situation.  Honestly I only come on here to see what you post, most of the posts now are just the angry mob that gets upset if anyone doesn't align with the group think.

Edited February 20 by NewWorldOrder

[comicwiz]

Then there's this:

Of those 2000+ submissions, CGC believes "[a]pproximately 369...were for reholdering"...although the complaint notes the "Defendants’ submissions have increased in recent years, with approximately 253 submissions in 2021, 345 submissions in 2022, and 329 submissions in 2023."

This submission data meshes with what I've seen, in terms of the progression of their activities, but falls short both in terms of the amount of subs in that three year span (927) when compared to their sales history records, as well as it falling short on when this starts - sales history shows it's as far back as 2016, but really took root in 2017/2018. 

Even if we stick with the UNLISTED tampered I've shared (2 thus far, FF 48 CGC 5.5 and ASM 300 CGC 9.8), the last one taking the timeline back to Aug 15, 2018, 6 years is a long time for someone to have allegedly been pulling this scam, and for it to go unnoticed.

Edited February 20 by comicwiz

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:58 PM, shadroch said:

Why? Did you think we were having a discussion? Post all the hypotheticals you want, someone might take the bait.

I posted to you because I am challenging on your statement about what is more risky.   You said buying CGC slabs in 2024 is more risky than buying Raw.  In my opinion that is not true for average collector.

There is minimal risk in me buying raw that's true, and prob for you because we are both seasoned vets.  I am still not convinced for the average collector though.

 

[BrashL]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:50 PM, BrashL said:

I don't know why I bother but....do we at least agree with:

Bottom line: CGC has admitted Zanello swapped books and sold them directly without reholder. Comicwiz has reliably traced this practice to at least 2018. CGC has stated unequivocally that the defrauded buyers of those books will not be compensated. Those facts are indisputable. 

Still waiting...

[shadroch]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:11 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

My friend you have done a great job, seriously you have helped the hobby a lot. 

I am not saying your work is invalid, and most of my posts are not even remotely directed at you.  

However, I am just saying I have no idea how many books were effected or the real scale of it.  Many are posting with emotion and complete speculation, as more facts come out then of course I readjust how I view situation.  Honestly I only come on here to see what you post, most of the posts now are just the angry mob that gets upset if anyone doesn't align with the group think.

If you only come on here to read comicwiz's posts, why are you arguing and making ridiculous hypotheticals, then getting upset when no one responds?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:49 PM, shadroch said:

If you only come on here to read comicwiz's posts, why are you arguing and making ridiculous hypotheticals, then getting upset when no one responds?

I am again just going on what you said yesterday about what in 2024 carries more risk.

So if a customer asks your opinion on whether to bid on:

A. "Raw" Hulk #181 on eBay with zero rating with pictures showing the MVS

B. CGC Graded blue label Hulk #181 CGC 9.4

You are telling your customer Option A right?  Because you said buying CGC slabs in 2024 is more risky than buying Raw.  

I am again just going off what you said.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:19 PM, BrashL said:

Still waiting...

I hit the "like" button.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:30 AM, sledgehammer said:

Why does it need to have been an employee?

If it wasn't, and it was Zanello, or what can't possibly have ONLY been Zanello that has been doing this for the last DOCUMENTED TO BE SIX YEARS,  CGC has already told us, within THE LAST WEEK, that unless it is on their list, YOU ARE SOOL for being reimbursed for buying it from someone.

Thank God, that they'll "look into it".

It doesn't, CGC would take back that Teen Titans #44 CGC 9.8 regardless of any year it was graded if the book was shown to them today in a tamper free holder which from the video is appeared to be showing.  Speaking of you saying I skim pages I said that yesterday.

The issue I have is no asked (didnt hear Bryce ask it either) the basic first question.  Did the original owner of that book/invoice get the same books back?  Was that Teen Titans #44 the same book? Yes or NO That is where this conversation should start. 

I literally provided you with a first hand example of my most recent mis-grade on a DD #181, you skimmed over that didnt you?

[sledgehammer]

On 2/20/2024 at 5:31 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

It doesn't, CGC would take back that Teen Titans #44 CGC 9.8 regardless of any year it was graded if the book was shown to them today in a tamper free holder which from the video is appeared to be showing.  Speaking of you saying I skim pages I said that yesterday.

you probably didn't realize it, but what you just said, is that you know exactly what the slabs look like, that scam Boy submitted to CGC to be reholdered.

CGC was not able to see that those slabs had been tampered with, but now you want to have a drawn out conversation, about what some goof in a YouTube video was able to discern.

I think I've made my position with you pretty clear. You're not adding anything.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:58 AM, sledgehammer said:

I think that the only problem is, that you like to stop by and read two posts on a page, and have to ask somebody else to send you a link to a YouTube video that was posted that same day.

I looked up all of the CGC certification numbers, for all of the other 22 books in that submission, and coincidentally, at least nine of them were the books that scam boy targets, put into inner sleeves in slabs, with the exact kinds of grades that would be used to do this scam.

but you missed that, because you don't really give a hoot about what anybody else is saying here.

I came to the conclusion, quite a while ago already, that your only perspective is that of a guy that makes his living, selling CGC graded comic books.

do me a favor, and stop trying to blow smoke up my butt.

Well we all can't be logged on here 24/7 some of us have Tamper FREE slabs to sell.

You have the right to come to that conclusion, and I get if you talk to a stockbroker they will always tell you to buy and its a bull market somewhere.  So yeah I get the easy right off that bat viewpoint is that I am biased because I am financially tied to CGC.  You know what dude we all usually have something that we are financially tied to in life.  I am sure what you do for a living you have your own biases for, but that also doesnt mean I am disqualified from stating an opinions and being pragmatic about whats going on.

You and others seem to think this will be CGC's downfall I am telling you that's not going to happen even 1%.

Just two weekends ago at the first major convention of the year at Megacon, CGC was packed all weekend long. What I heard is they took in a record amount of submissions.  Not bad for so many collectors apparently saying they are "sitting on the sidelines."

You know what I see? A lot of people full of .    At least I am honest.  

CGC needs to get their house in order we can all agree on, I am just know they will still be around for the long haul. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Coming soon from a reputable dealer near you.

"Black light Specials."

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Coming soon from a reputable dealer near you.

"Black light Specials."

As long as these aren't mid to lower grade playboys. 

[sledgehammer]

The most painfully biased opinion that I've read, since comiclink, stopped by in early January, and let us know that the list could only diminish.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Lol whew thanks, as I had tried to keep an open mind there and hoping for the best but

 

Edited February 21 by ADAMANTIUM
Remove the quote cause post really stands on its own

[grendel013]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:46 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Lol whew thanks, as I had tried to keep an open mind there and hoping for the best but

 

If ever there was an appropriate time for this meme.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/20/2024 at 6:50 PM, grendel013 said:

If ever there was an appropriate time for this meme.

Ya I knew when I was having to correct my positive posts that it wasn't that I "thought there was hope", but rather trying to convince myself. 

When the suit came out against the employees, as opposed to the 350, there was no coming back from that.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:58 PM, sledgehammer said:

you probably didn't realize it, but what you just said, is that you know exactly what the slabs look like, that scam Boy submitted to CGC to be reholdered.

CGC was not able to see that those slabs had been tampered with, but now you want to have a drawn out conversation, about what some goof in a YouTube video was able to discern.

I think I've made my position with you pretty clear. You're not adding anything.

Your back handed insults aside.  I understand what you are saying, but how is it unreasonable to take a stance on getting all the facts first, and asking more questions before assuming everything now is a scam or fraud. 

Your position!   What power position is that? Well as long as you have made your important position known to me and the CGC boards we all can rest safety because the mighty "tool" known as sledgehammer is here to fight for justice in the hobby. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Your back handed insults aside.  I understand what you are saying, but how is it unreasonable to take a stance on getting all the facts first, and asking more questions before assuming everything now is a scam or fraud. 

Your position!   What power position is that? Well as long as you have made your important position known to me and the CGC boards we all can rest safety because the mighty "tool" known as sledgehammer is here to fight for justice in the hobby. 

Idk if you're that disassociated due to volume of sales, or pain stakingly nit picking?4

Spoiler

4 mil worth of books that are in litigation due to fraud? That is a big deal and a reputation is at stake, nevermind the confirmed 2000 slabs tampered compared to 10 mil seemingly OK. It is called brand recognition that "can be diminished" and  that is discussion.

Sure value might not go down by much or not as much over time, IF trust is rebuilt. This will add to ebay buyer scams that want partial refund due to not agreeing with the grade, and we could go on and on!

I don't own 9.8s that are worth $10,000 dollars and am "maybe not affected as much", but I don't go around trying to defend that point to make a deal about it.

You could come from the angle that your volume and cost of living hasn't been affected, which will be a better argument over time? But for now, it's not even that it is "too soon" or that "it's happened before and no one batted an eye?"

People grieve in different ways and making light of victims, is too close to be "making fun" if it were to indeed be too soon. You've made your point, no need to impede in the detective work and then them just to stop because you think it silly. Some good may come of it, and give credit where it is due.

I'm not saying I agree with all the suspension in some places or the suggestive surmising, but if those discoveries lead to actual discovery, then there is no harm. I'm not sure the "point" of convincing people when you don't keep up with the thread, a little disrespecting? I understand no one is on here 24 hours a day, but the perception of your posts is this long winded one that sounds like a 

I will add to this, as long as cgc allows it and it's not harassment to dig in to find stuff, I have heard cgc yay or nay if this thread is a good thing. They have said they will watch it and care to hear! Take what you can get, and if cgc seems to encourage it, then don't minimize. @NewWorldOrder

Edited February 21 by ADAMANTIUM