Isn't "Color Touch Removal" Just Destroying the Book? 1 1

[clarkkentdds]

I don't understand how "color touch removal" is anything less than just tearing or scraping the color out? How can CGC be ok with this? I understand how pressing can be given a pass, but this is next level...

I mentioned this a few months ago, when the Sup#1 3.0 was sold at HA, but I've seen other blue chip books since then that have suffered the same fate.

I don't understand how buyers aren't noticing this? It is obvious and ludicrous. I hope the market recognizes this.

 

[Courageous Cat]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:00 PM, clarkkentdds said:

I don't understand how "color touch removal" is anything less than just tearing or scraping the color out? How can CGC be ok with this? I understand how pressing can be given a pass, but this is next level...

I mentioned this a few months ago, when the Sup#1 3.0 was sold at HA, but I've seen other blue chip books since then that have suffered the same fate.

I don't understand how buyers aren't noticing this? It is obvious and ludicrous. I hope the market recognizes this.

 

Profit above historical importance seems to be the norm in the modern era. Most removal ends up making the book look like krap in many cases

[KCOComics]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:00 PM, clarkkentdds said:

I don't understand how "color touch removal" is anything less than just tearing or scraping the color out? How can CGC be ok with this? I understand how pressing can be given a pass, but this is next level...

I mentioned this a few months ago, when the Sup#1 3.0 was sold at HA, but I've seen other blue chip books since then that have suffered the same fate.

I don't understand how buyers aren't noticing this? It is obvious and ludicrous. I hope the market recognizes this.

 

Until buyers change their habits this won't change.  

Right now, the blue label trumps all. If buyers start to recognize CT removal and pay less for it than restored books, things would change. We would stop rewarding the act of mutilating a comic.  

That's just not the current state of the hobby. 

People buy the label, not the book. 

[Ryan.]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:00 PM, clarkkentdds said:

I don't understand how "color touch removal" is anything less than just tearing or scraping the color out? 

 

That's exactly what it is. It's a horrific practice and one of CGC's worst policy decisions is to recognize as universal labeling. 

Edited January 10 by Ryan.

[Phill the Governor]

This is a much more nuanced topic than is being discussed.

There's a spectrum. Often times A/B/C 1 level color touch can be removed to get the book to an unrestored state and the book isn't "destroyed" in the process. Not so much for anything past that scale. Ultimately it's up to the discretion of the person doing the removal to say "don't have this removed because the book will not only be destroyed but will look like the color touch was removed", certainly a less than desirable result vs. keeping it "restored" with a minor amount of color touch.

[tth2]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:55 PM, Phill the Governor said:

Ultimately it's up to the discretion of the person doing the removal to say "don't have this removed because the book will not only be destroyed but will look like the color touch was removed", certainly a less than desirable result vs. keeping it "restored" with a minor amount of color touch.

That's not the decision most people are coming to, particularly dealers/flippers who are buying restored CT books.  They only care about making money off the book.  They could care less if the books are damaged as a result, all they care about is getting an unrestored label with as little a drop in grade as possible and successfully arbitraging the difference between the value of the book as a restored CT book and the value of the book as an unrestored CT-scraped book.

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:19 AM, tth2 said:

That's not the decision most people are coming to, particularly dealers/flippers who are buying restored CT books.  They only care about making money off the book.  They could care less if the books are damaged as a result, all they care about is getting an unrestored label with as little a drop in grade as possible and successfully arbitraging the difference between the value of the book as a restored CT book and the value of the book as an unrestored CT-scraped book.

Yeah but that doesn't negate the responsibility falling to them, just lends an argument that it's happening more often than some people's preference would be. There's no mention of all the books with ct removed that aren't obvious or noticed because removal didn't impact the eye appeal really at all/nearly as much. So the good cases of removal aren't noticed and by default the worst examples get pushed towards the front, making it appear those instances are more common.

Not saying you're wrong that some greedy dealers/flippers will do it no matter what, etc. but again this is more nuanced than it may appear.

[Point Five]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:34 AM, Phill the Governor said:

Yeah but that doesn't negate the responsibility falling to them, just lends an argument that it's happening more often than some people's preference would be. There's no mention of all the books with ct removed that aren't obvious or noticed because removal didn't impact the eye appeal really at all/nearly as much. So the good cases of removal aren't noticed and by default the worst examples get pushed towards the front, making it appear those instances are more common.

Not saying you're wrong that some greedy dealers/flippers will do it no matter what, etc. but again this is more nuanced than it may appear.

That's all reasonable, fair points Phil.

As you say, there's been a rash of these extensively 'scraped' books in the past year or two, and those are getting the heat and attention. I'm guessing everyone here reacting negatively has seen at least a few of those. They are tough to look at, and they scream 'someone tried to game the blue label system and here's what happened' each time you do. I'm flexible on many defects that turn other collectors off, but it's hard to think of *any* circumstance where I'd want one of those in my collection.

 

[clarkkentdds]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:45 AM, szav said:

In my mind there is no difference between scraping off part of the book and trimming it.  You are physically removing part of the book to improve, in the minds of some, the grade, desirability, or perceived value of the book.  CT removal is itself restoration, it's absurd.

I say this every time the topic comes up, but it's really the worst of all practices that CGC not only allows, but incentivizes.  It's a really bad policy.   A happy medium that CGC could adopt and still rake in more money would be to announce that books that are currently in purple holders for color touch alone could be regraded and given a blue label grade, if the owner so desires, that is the effective 'blue label grade if we were to scrape off the CT affected areas' without actually doing the harm to the book.  Think of how many resubs they'd get and all the $$$.

Send in your purple 7.0 small amount of CT book, and get back a 5.5 blue label, or whatever it should be. that lists the CT in the graders notes and treats it more or less like a stain from a grading perspective.  Win win.

I presented this idea on the boards years ago. CGC could give two grades: The current grade, (even if in a blue label) and the "potential grade" if pressing were done or resto removal. The potential grade would be an estimate, but all grading is subjective anyways. There is a market for this.

[Courageous Cat]

CGC is simply incentivizing bad behavior and unfortunately I don't see CGC stepping up and saying this practice will no longer be encouraged. But hey! I've been wrong before

[Bumble Kitty]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:00 PM, clarkkentdds said:

I don't understand how "color touch removal" is anything less than just tearing or scraping the color out? How can CGC be ok with this? I understand how pressing can be given a pass, but this is next level...

I mentioned this a few months ago, when the Sup#1 3.0 was sold at HA, but I've seen other blue chip books since then that have suffered the same fate.

I don't understand how buyers aren't noticing this? It is obvious and ludicrous. I hope the market recognizes this.

 

It is not necessarily a bad thing.  A while back, I bought a Golden Age romance book that was graded 9.2, with slight color touch.  I got it real cheap.  Obviously, the seller just wanted to get rid of this monstrosity.  I could not spot the color touch through the slab, so I sent it in for color touch removal and re-grading.  It came back 9.0.  A real nice looking book!  I can't see where the color touch was "scrapped" off.  

This book will stay in my collection for a very long time, even though it is worth at least ten times what I have in it.

[fifties]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:00 PM, Bumble Kitty said:

A while back, I bought a Golden Age romance book that was graded 9.2, with slight color touch.

  I could not spot the color touch through the slab, so I sent it in for color touch removal and re-grading.  It came back 9.0.  A real nice looking book!  I can't see where the color touch was "scrapped" off.  

 

I'm not at all surprised.  I've bought numerous purple label slabbed "slight color touch" graded books, and I always de-slab them.  I have yet to find the alleged color touch, but more power to them.  It makes the books more affordable to me.  And IF I were to sell it raw, with no mention of CT (not a lie, as I can't see any), could get perhaps a better price than what I paid.

[KCOComics]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:12 PM, fifties said:

I'm not at all surprised.  I've bought numerous purple label slabbed "slight color touch" graded books, and I always de-slab them.  I have yet to find the alleged color touch, but more power to them.  It makes the books more affordable to me.  And IF I were to sell it raw, with no mention of CT (not a lie, as I can't see any), could get perhaps a better price than what I paid.

Well.. if cgc identified CT, you should disclose it. 

To your larger point, I've had a few GA books with CT I can't spot. I have a gorgeous Blue Bolt and I can't see the CT. 

I've never even considered upgrading because the colors just jump off the page. It would be hard to find a prettier copy without paying an fortune. 

[Marty Mann]

During the period that I was having my collection graded by CGC two books were graded with "color touch".

There was never any  " color touch" done to these books  but once they were dubbed  they were doomed.

[Artboy99]

here is a perfect example of how the color touch removal ruins / further destroys books and the process being completed purely for the blue label / profit.

Edited January 11 by Artboy99

[dbcn]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:42 PM, KCOComics said:

Well.. if cgc identified CT, you should disclose it. 

 

100%.

Having just bought a nice looking raw ASM 194 off of ebay and submitting it for a signing, I was pretty disheartened to see the SS C-1 in the Category on the submission page.

Since there was no disclosure in the original listing, my guess is that the seller had no idea it was restored, so it ends up being my 'loss' - had I known it had been restored I probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a huge investment - lesson learned; but c'mon: even if CGC hasn't seen the book yet, if you as a seller know about the restoration, you should 100% disclose it to any potential buyer. (honestly that sounds like fraud)

Will I resubmit to have the restoration removed? I guess it will ultimately depend on how extensive the restoration is, what the grade ends up being, how much the restoration removal & regrade would cost, and how it looks in the slab.

I might just keep it as a reminder of what not to do.

 

 

[Artboy99]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:56 AM, dbcn said:

100%.

Having just bought a nice looking raw ASM 194 off of ebay and submitting it for a signing, I was pretty disheartened to see the SS C-1 in the Category on the submission page.

Since there was no disclosure in the original listing, my guess is that the seller had no idea it was restored, so it ends up being my 'loss' - had I known it had been restored I probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a huge investment - lesson learned; but c'mon: even if CGC hasn't seen the book yet, if you as a seller know about the restoration, you should 100% disclose it to any potential buyer. (honestly that sounds like fraud)

Will I resubmit to have the restoration removed? I guess it will ultimately depend on how extensive the restoration is, what the grade ends up being, how much the restoration removal & regrade would cost, and how it looks in the slab.

I might just keep it as a reminder of what not to do.

 

 

another issue is the extremely vague description by CGC on exactly how much color touch there actually is on the book. I watched a friend crack open a Fantastic Four 45 that had the description "small amount of color touch on spine". Once opened and we could actually inspect the book it was revealed the entire spine was heavily touched as were other parts of the book at the top, bottom and sides. An estimate is 20% of the surface of the front cover was touched. 

[dbcn]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:46 AM, Artboy99 said:

An estimate is 20% of the surface of the front cover was touched. 

yikes - thanks for that @Artboy99 - maybe I will just leave it in the slab. Yellow and Purple look nice together, right?

[KCOComics]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:46 AM, Artboy99 said:

another issue is the extremely vague description by CGC on exactly how much color touch there actually is on the book. I watched a friend crack open a Fantastic Four 45 that had the description "small amount of color touch on spine". Once opened and we could actually inspect the book it was revealed the entire spine was heavily touched as were other parts of the book at the top, bottom and sides. An estimate is 20% of the surface of the front cover was touched. 

There was a video floating around of a guy who bought an AF15 7.0 with Slight CT. 

He cracked it and it was a ton. All along the spine and everywhere. He kept saying "we'll scrape it off and it might be a 5.0 blue label"....I can't imagine how ugly that book would have looked! 

I think he ultimately came to the realization that it was to much to scrape off, but yikes! 

[KCOComics]

On 1/11/2024 at 9:49 AM, Marty Mann said:

During the period that I was having my collection graded by CGC two books were graded with "color touch".

There was never any  " color touch" done to these books  but once they were dubbed  they were doomed.

I had a book I bought from an original owner and it came back with CT which I was very surprised about. 

The owner colored in a bit of the cover with a magic marker. I saw it and thought it looked like a 10 year old drawing with a magic marker. CGC saw it as color touch. 

I argued a little,  but gave up pretty quickly.