When can we expect a totally redesigned holder from CGC? 6 6

[Sam T]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:54 AM, namisgr said:

I don't see how having other books in other people's inventory or collections being possibly tampered with changes that at all.

CGC's core product was designed reduce friction in comic sales. It's value comes from allowing strangers to buy and sell comics form each other with a meaningful guarantee that the books were exactly as described. After swapgate showed people how easy it is to open and reseal slabs, a slabs guarantee is only as good as the reputations of all the people that have had access to that book.

 

If I have to research and backtrack the entire chain of custody of a comic book and trust everyone in that chain, then I don't see what value CGC is actually adding. I've been going to conventions in NYC for over decade, buying from the same small group of local dealers the whole time. These guys know how to grade. They know how to spot resto. And if they get something wrong, they'll make it right. I can get a raw book from any of these guys for less money and actually KNOW that a trustworthy human has graded it and is willing to put their personal reputation behind the sale. Most collectors who stick with it long term will build these kinds of relationships and right now CGC has nothing to offer these kinds of buyers and sellers.

 

The value of slabbing a book is only as good as the piece of mind provided by the security features of the case and that piece of mind no longer exists for active and experienced collectibles. And in terms of liability, to commit meaingufl resources to a redesign would involve admitting the security flaws of the product they were currently sellings. CGC would basically have to stop taking submissions while they figured out the next design or risk massive liability for continuing to sell flawed and misleading products.

[namisgr]

I can see your viewpoint.  But we don't yet have an answer to a key question that might make many of those concerns go away.  Are cases that have been tampered with and resealed indistinguishable from untampered cases?  Because if there's tiny but discernable damage to the top or bottom edge, whichever was opened, or one or both of the corners that were opened, then careful examination of slabs by sellers and/or buyers will identify books that are likely to have been tampered with.  If true, this should also be applied going forward by CGC when performing reholdering, and hopefully it will.

A second checkpoint comes with careful inspection of the encapsulated comic front and back covers.  While it can't find books with clipped coupons or other damage to interior pages, a book that looks much worse than the structural grade assigned to it is suspect, and worthy of avoidance whether or not it may have been tampered with (another way of saying 'always buy the book and not the label').

The encapsulation business has never been foolproof.  It's over two decades now that we've seen comics with green or purple labels get regraded with blue labels, and vice versa, or comics that someone bought off the rack and never manipulated being graded as having been trimmed, or comics change two or even more grading units after regrading without any cleaning or pressing having been done, or the page quality being mislabeled for a book, or gentle whitening techniques used to remove stains or dust shadows while retaining blue labels, and on and on.  But overall there are many fewer 'shenanigan' comics being sold that have been checked for restoration and graded by CGC than there are raw 'shenanigan' books never undergoing the process.

 

Edited January 15 by namisgr
disclaimer: I used to own hundreds of slabbed comics in my SA/BA/EC collections, but over a period of a decade sold them all. I only have raw books left.

[drotto]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:52 PM, jcjames said:

Very thin metallic/Mylar tape over all four seams. Like the tamper-proof seals on many electronics.  

At least until a redesign is completed. 

Problem is tape peels over time.  It is one of the reasons the gen 2 case was redesigned, because the stick on labels along the top always came off. Remember these cases are potentially highly handled and moved often.  Electronics tend to be purchased once then put on a shelf or desk.  The tape is not subject to handling in the same fashion.

 

Good in concept, but it would be a headache in the future, because collectors would not want cases with any indication of even a peeling label. 

[MisterX]

I haven't been reading all the threads about this very closely, but...I tend to think that a portion of slabbers still engage in the CPR game, which generates more money for CGC, so...what's their incentive to design a truly crack-proof slab?

As long as there's still a way to crack the slabs open, the door will always be left open for tampering.  Until they seal the comics in invisible force-field bubbles!

[drotto]

On 1/15/2024 at 2:51 PM, MisterX said:

I haven't been reading all the threads about this very closely, but...I tend to think that a portion of slabbers still engage in the CPR game, which generates more money for CGC, so...what's their incentive to design a truly crack-proof slab?

As long as there's still a way to crack the slabs open, the door will always be left open for tampering.  Until they seal the comics in invisible force-field bubbles!

Again this is why tamper evident is the key.  You need to either mark permanently the inner well which already need to be cut to get the book out, or make it so the outer case can't be opened without it breaking.  For people doing CPR the case showing damage is a non issue.

[Sam T]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:49 PM, namisgr said:

But we don't yet have an answer to a key question that might make many of those concerns go away.  Are cases that have been tampered with and resealed indistinguishable from untampered cases?

I'm sorry but this a pretty unreasonable thing to say. The folks at CGC doing reholdering crack more slabs than anyone else in the world and they were fooled. It's just not reasonable to pretend that a comic buyer could spot something that CGC's own professionals could not spot. And the idea that we still don't know what happened is just not true. There were basically two possible problems we could be seeing:

 

1. An inside man at CGC swapping books during the reholdering.

2. Slabs are not tamper proof and popular online retailers have figured out how to crack,swap and reseal slabs.

 

Well Matt Nelson, President of CGC, just confirmed in an interview that there was no inside man or rogue CGC employee involved in this scam. That's actually WORSE for CGC. A bad employee could be fired but if slabs themselves are insecure then it means that their core product is no longer viable and that's a death sentence for a business. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:33 AM, Sam T said:

...and that's a death sentence for a business. 

LOL. If you think this is going to affect their bottom line AT ALL, there's a bridge I have to sell you.

[comicjel]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:33 AM, Sam T said:

I'm sorry but this a pretty unreasonable thing to say. The folks at CGC doing reholdering crack more slabs than anyone else in the world and they were fooled. It's just not reasonable to pretend that a comic buyer could spot something that CGC's own professionals could not spot. And the idea that we still don't know what happened is just not true. There were basically two possible problems we could be seeing:

 

1. An inside man at CGC swapping books during the reholdering.

2. Slabs are not tamper proof and popular online retailers have figured out how to crack,swap and reseal slabs.

 

Well Matt Nelson, President of CGC, just confirmed in an interview that there was no inside man or rogue CGC employee involved in this scam. That's actually WORSE for CGC. A bad employee could be fired but if slabs themselves are insecure then it means that their core product is no longer viable and that's a death sentence for a business. 

If the scammer was able to switch out the books without leaving "any" trace of the case being tampered with, it follows that they would not have needed to send the books back to CGC to get reholdered - why risk it (and pay for reholdering) if not needed?

To me, it's more likely that the swap-out left some small marks or minor cracks on the case, such that the cases needed to be reholdered to make the books safe to sell. 

I believe the scammer gambled (or otherwise felt comfortable) that the reholder person / people were not really checking the holders closely, and that the reholder process had become more of an assembly line for collectors getting custom labels for their books.

It's certainly possible that the books can be swapped out without leaving any trace, but I do not feel that this has been proven yet by what we know so far. 

 

  

[namisgr]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:33 AM, Sam T said:

I'm sorry but this a pretty unreasonable thing to say. The folks at CGC doing reholdering crack more slabs than anyone else in the world and they were fooled. It's just not reasonable to pretend that a comic buyer could spot something that CGC's own professionals could not spot. And the idea that we still don't know what happened is just not true. There were basically two possible problems we could be seeing:

Now that Matt Nelson has been interviewed on the detection of tampered cases, perhaps this is not so unreasonable after all.

[jimjum12]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:23 AM, namisgr said:

Now that Matt Nelson has been interviewed on the detection of tampered cases, perhaps this is not so unreasonable after all.

Back when the forums were new, there were, even then, those of us who removed our books from slabs. We liked flipping through vintage comic books. The older slabs were never that difficult to open and leave all 4 posts intact. Some of us even jokingly reported when we did one like that. They were easily placed back together with no easily discernable evidence. The inner wells would often peel apart with NO cutting. The new cases are not designed that way and you damn near need a jackhammer to get in one. Inner well ABSOLUTELY must be cut to remove the book. If you have an earlier generation slab, shenanigans can still occur. If someone at CGC was looking, they might, for example, notice a book in an early generation slab that wasn't even printed then... that could be a red flag, but there won't be many. I mention this as it can be another way it could occur ... send it in with the old case to be reholdered, wash rinse and repeat. Only problem is not all old labels are easy to pop. Usually at least 1 post is lost. I never did that, nor did I give any 4 post outer cases to anyone ... I just tossed them. But that was just me. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

Edited January 17 by jimjum12

[Sam T]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:23 AM, namisgr said:

Now that Matt Nelson has been interviewed on the detection of tampered cases,

The only new piece of information that Matt Nelson shared in that interview was confirmation that it was not an inside job and that no CGC employees were implicated. He confirmed that the real issue was the security of the slabs and that someone was able to get swapped books by CGC's own employees...that's the ball game folks 🤣🤣🤣

Saying that collectors should be able to spot fakes while CGC's own employees couldn't do it is just not plausible. 

Matt Nelson's interview is actually worse for CGC than the conspiracy theory he quashed. Firing a rogue employee is an easy way to reduce liability, but he confirmed that the slabs are not secure while CGC continues to sell 'em. Yikes!

Edited January 17 by Sam T

[namisgr]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Sam T said:

The only new piece of information that Matt Nelson shared in that interview was confirmation that it was not an inside job and that no CGC employees were implicated. He confirmed that the real issue was the security of the slabs and that someone was able to get swapped books by CGC's own employees...that's the ball game folks 🤣🤣🤣

Saying that collectors should be able to spot fakes while CGC's own employees couldn't do it is just not plausible. 

That was the same circumstance initially when the Ewert microtrimming scandal broke.  Previously, trimmed comics were getting by CGC's restoration check and given inappropriate blue labels.  But the company became knowledgeable about detecting the trimming from the experience.  There's neither reason nor information at the present time to rule out that CGC going forward will be able to detect damage to the outer cases that are opened for swapping inner wells and then the posts resealed.

[namisgr]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:32 PM, Sam T said:

Saying that collectors should be able to spot fakes while CGC's own employees couldn't do it is just not plausible. 

First off, the chemist posting on YouTube as Immaculate Comics who demonstrated the opening of outer cases using a heat gun and then resealing the posts and the open edge with a thin stream of xylenes stated that the method he used left behind traces that were subtle but still detectable.  While he speculated that modification of his techniques could make the process undetectable, he has not yet shown that it is.

Secondly, the current scandal involves CGC staff engaged in reholdering.  It's entirely possible that the outer casing only received a cursory check for tampering, or perhaps no check at all saving for the confirmation that all the posts were still closed and there was no major damage to the cases.  Once again, now that the company has been alerted to possible tampering of two of the corners, and those of us in the collecting community aware of the scandal have as well, it would be premature to rule out that meticulous inspection of the slab corners can detect the tampering now that the process is well known and at least partially understood.

I'll believe the sky is falling when I see it falling.  But it isn't quite yet from my perspective.

Edited January 18 by namisgr

[Sam T]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:57 PM, namisgr said:

There's neither reason nor information at the present time to rule out that CGC going forward will be able to detect damage

Except this isn't the issue. The real issue isn't about CGC employees detecting resealed slabs. The real issue is that if folks can get them buy CGC employees then they can definitely get them by most collectors. And if CGC's slabs can't be trusted from 3rd party sellers, then their service is worth a lot less than it was.

 

The value of CGC's grading services is directly correlated to communities belief that the slabs are tamper-proof. The community no longer believes that. That's meaningful and it's a much bigger problem than CGC's reholdering process. It's a much bigger problem than one scammer on eBay. Slabs aren't tamper-proof and that's the bigger problem.

[namisgr]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:16 PM, Sam T said:

Except this isn't the issue. The real issue isn't about CGC employees detecting resealed slabs. The real issue is that if folks can get them buy CGC employees then they can definitely get them by most collectors.

While that maybe so, it's based on the assumption that during the reholdering process these tampered slabs were carefully and thoroughly examined.

[Sam T]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:26 PM, namisgr said:

it's based on the assumption that during the reholdering process these tampered slabs were carefully and thoroughly examined.

No, I am not assuming that at all but you keep implying that CGC's reholdering employees were incompetent instead of acknowledging much more likely scenario: slabs aren't tamper proof.

 

There really aren't that many different possible explanations. Really just two. One explanation was a scammer inside CGC's reholdering process, the other explanation was that slabs are being counterfeited well enough to get past CGC's own employees. Matt Nelson said it isn't the first option...that only leaves option #2.

 

Slabs are not tamper proof.

[Yorick]

I'm beginning to be sold on the microchip idea.

If CGC actually put microchamber paper into every comic, perhaps that might be a way to add some security features...

[Silver Surfer]

New slab design released after they use up the existing inventory?

[jcjames]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:33 AM, Yorick said:

I'm beginning to be sold on the microchip idea.

If CGC actually put microchamber paper into every comic, perhaps that might be a way to add some security features...

Good idea in principle, and better than nothing I suppose. 

Wonder though, are you thinking that some sort of microchip/ribbon would be added to the microchamber paper and put inside the book? Or would it be the slab or label that was microchipped? 

The other issue would be, considering all the QC problems with just the labels getting mixed up, whether a customer would ever know if the right microchip is associated with the right book? 

 

[bc]

On 1/18/2024 at 5:09 PM, jcjames said:

Good idea in principle, and better than nothing I suppose. 

Wonder though, are you thinking that some sort of microchip/ribbon would be added to the microchamber paper and put inside the book? Or would it be the slab or label that was microchipped? 

The other issue would be, considering all the QC problems with just the labels getting mixed up, whether a customer would ever know if the right microchip is associated with the right book? 

 

I would seal the microchip directly in the top seal of the inner well (basically laminate into the inner well). That way it provides a secondary identification/authentication method. If the inner well is missing the chip or the chip can't be read or located in the database when a resub/reholder is received, it goes straight to the full grading process. 

Since several scams have leveraged the reholder/custom label/switching inner wells & labels, this provides a potential secondary validation point to identify fraudulent activity outside the current protective measures.

I do understand the QC concerns, but if they are going to improve the integrity of their brand, then some financial and process investments will be required.

Since the office above me specializes in microchip solutions and I've seen how versatile they are, here's a Wired article about how they are utilized in the Italian cheese industry:

https://wired.me/technology/parmesan-cheese-microchip/

-bc