Why should a key issue be worth so much more than a non key issue? 1 1

[PovertyRow]

On 2/5/2024 at 9:37 AM, LowGradeBronze said:

comic collectors can be, well, a bit bonkers! 

    

[MAR1979]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:37 PM, LowGradeBronze said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned (apologies if it has) but the difference between coins and comics (with regard to the original question) could be the collectors themselves. Coin collectors might be fairly staid and rational humans whereas comic collectors can be, well, a bit bonkers!

Vice-Versa! but not https://www.viceversanyc.com/#home , although I do recommend it and will be stopping back again this Oct during NYCC

Edited February 5 by MAR1979

[PovertyRow]

On 2/5/2024 at 7:24 AM, Mokiguy said:

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another.

As I alluded to, comics are a cultural phenomenon. I had a rather lengthy post that I have edited down to this:

For myself and many collectors, the comic book culture is visceral. And being visceral, an intellectual discussion is usually futile. I can just glance at a certain cover or see a certain book with a ho-hum cover (Strange Tales #110 come to mind) and have an immediate reaction that takes me on a trip with memories that can span decades and can fill me with emotion and excitement. Whereas other covers/books do little for me. The ones that DO create those visceral feelings are the ones that have an impact on the comic book world and its culture. And the ones most sought (demand) and command a higher price.

These are visceral reactions. Feelings. They cannot be quantified or intellectually explained. 

Edited February 5 by PovertyRow

[newshane]

In the simplest terms:

Scarcity is not the only metric by which the value of a comic is determined. 

You also have to consider demand. 

"Key issues" are worth more because they are in demand. 

There are several reasons why an issue could be considered a key:

1. First appearance of an important character (Amazing Fantasy 15) 

2. A famous or important story arc, including origin stories or character crossovers (Secret Wars 8) 

3. Cover art that is considered highly desirable (Incredible Hulk 340) 

4. The first issue of a series drawn or written by a famous artist or writer (Amazing Spider-Man 298) 

5. The first issue in a popular series (Walking Dead 1) 

5. Other historical reasons (Eerie 1) 

Keep the following in mind:

1. An issue can be scarce but worthless due to lack of demand. This is where comic collecting deviates, somewhat, from coin collecting. 

2. Supply and demand is the main driving force behind a comic's value. 

3. Other than supply and demand, it's also important to consider the condition of a comic. 

 

 

[thehumantorch]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:24 AM, Mokiguy said:

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another. And that really was my question, wasn't it? I'm sure that a key issue was stuffed into that back pocket on the bicycle ride and read to death just like every other non key issue since nobody new a key issue from a hole in the ground back when they were printed 50 or more years ago.

I think why this thread got off track was because I used the word "greed", and nobody wants to think of themselves as greedy, and so most of the comments tried to explain away that word when it came to them. In hindsight, that was not the best choice of a word for my question. But the other word I used, speculation was. Whether my simplistic assumption of print runs staying pretty much the same through out a year, or comics being worn out and thrown away at pretty much the same rate, key issue or not since no one new an issue would be a key issue at the time of printing. Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation. And that's OK. My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book.

So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

Interesting discussion.  My wife would certainly agree with you that I'm nuts to spend thousands on a comic book.

First off, scarcity does affect comic book values.  It's harder to see in titles like Amazing Spider-man or Fantastic Four where the print runs were massive and the surviving number of copies is relatively high.  You can see that in Fantastic Four #44 versus similar issues like #43 or #42.  There was a warehouse find of FF #44 so the scarcity of high grade copies is low compared to #43 or #42 and prices reflect that.  #44 is worth about 1/3 of #43 or #42.  You'll also see that scarcity matters when collecting GA.  There are some GA books out there that have few surviving copies and there are many long time GA collectors who can identify those issues and when and if they come up for sale those collectors will pay up for them knowing they may never see them for sale again.  You'll see the same market forces for popular MA variant books with great covers and low print runs. Some of them are selling for insane prices and that price is based on a lot of demand for a great cover but few existing copies - J Scott Campbell comes to mind.  You'll even see scarcity matters for BA Hulk where there may be few copies of a certain issue graded 9.8 and prices for those issues in 9.8 are much higher than surrounding issues that have lots of graded 9.8 copies.

Let's come at this in a different direction.  Price is related to supply and demand.  Demand isn't uniform for comic books. 

The cover artist can greatly increase the demand for a book.  Some artists are more popular and that increases the demand for books they've worked on.  Subject matter will also greatly affect demand for a book.  Well drawn women, Nazi symbols or Hitler on the cover, bondage, skulls, classic imagery all drive demand.   

And the reality is that demand is higher for keys.  The introduction of a character, death of a character, a change in the character's powers, or a classic story line is just more important and interesting.  Out of the 10,000 or so published issues of Spider-man his first appearance is just a lot more interesting and important than his 4500th appearance where nothing really happened.  And don't ignore the power of the internet.  There are a lot of guys posting big keys and classic covers and valuable books online and that strokes their ego and that helps to drive values higher.  They won't get that attention posting Spider-man's 4500th nothing appearance.  And to be fair it wasn't that different in 1975.  I had a couple copies of X-men #1 and I valued it higher than any other X-men issue because even back then I understood that a first appearance of X-men was important.

But I will agree with you.  There's a lot of speculation in this hobby and much of it revolves around key and valuable books. 

But the demand from collectors came first and the speculation followed because speculators understand that they're more likely to make money speculating on books that are in high demand.  The speculators wouldn't be here otherwise.

[comicginger1789]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:24 AM, Mokiguy said:

My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book.

So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

I mean, I feel like we could say this about any hobby or joy people have. For example, I think it is looney to pay 100K for a car. I just wanted a reliable cheap safe ride and that's it. But some people love cars. "It was their dad's or grandparents vehicle or I just want to drive something cool and fast". In the same vein as I am with comics, I can relate. I don't assume they are doing the whole classic car thing for money (some are sure) but I think many people do it for the passion, same as we do here. It is a weird thing for sure to explain. Or even playing a sport...I have friends who still spend thousands on equipment and facility time and so on for their favourite sport, if not just for the love of being active and competitive with others. Again, not my personal joy but to each their own.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

There are some strange things happening here.

Consider the case of Tales To Astonish # 13.

Before the release of Guardians Of The Galaxy, # 13 was worth exactly the same as # 12 and #14.

That changed almost overnight. Who decided that # 13 should go up in value? The story is a run-of the mill Lee/Kirby pre-superhero, Groot is a very minor character, and the supply is not out of line with the others of the period.

What made fans decide that they could no longer live without a copy of TTA# 13?

And who took advantage of it?

As previously mentioned, greed and speculation are an intrinsic part of the dynamic here.

Any way of finding out whether anyone involved in the production of GOTG hoarded TTA # 13?

If not, they must be kicking themselves.

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/5/2024 at 3:08 PM, newshane said:

In the simplest terms:

Scarcity is not the only metric by which the value of a comic is determined. 

You also have to consider demand. 

"Key issues" are worth more because they are in demand.

Exactly.

On 2/5/2024 at 3:08 PM, newshane said:

There are several reasons why an issue could be considered a key:

No, there is only one: importance. Things like scarcity and popularity may increase value, but they don't make keys.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:14 AM, Mokiguy said:

So if any of you want to comment, please do because I really don't get it.

Yeah, we already know that. Unfortunately, all this thread has proven is that you are apparently incapable of understanding even this very simple concept.

 

[davidking623]

My favorite is which is more keyish ?

[newshane]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:53 PM, Lazyboy said:

Exactly.

No, there is only one: importance. Things like scarcity and popularity may increase value, but they don't make keys.

 

 

Of course. 

I'd refer you back to my post above. I gave reasons why books are considered important (keys). 

[Calidream'n]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:24 AM, Mokiguy said:

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another. And that really was my question, wasn't it? I'm sure that a key issue was stuffed into that back pocket on the bicycle ride and read to death just like every other non key issue since nobody new a key issue from a hole in the ground back when they were printed 50 or more years ago.

I think why this thread got off track was because I used the word "greed", and nobody wants to think of themselves as greedy, and so most of the comments tried to explain away that word when it came to them. In hindsight, that was not the best choice of a word for my question. But the other word I used, speculation was. Whether my simplistic assumption of print runs staying pretty much the same through out a year, or comics being worn out and thrown away at pretty much the same rate, key issue or not since no one new an issue would be a key issue at the time of printing. Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation. And that's OK. My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book.

So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

I could say the same of a coin. Melted down, what is its material value, whether it be silver or gold? Paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for $100 worth of gold seems insane to me. But, much like comics, why are they collected? The beauty, the history, the art.

Edited February 8 by Calidream'n

[lostboys]

Collector A collects runs which include the key issues.

Collector B only collects the key issues.

Speculator X hoards the key issues.

Flipper Y hoards the key issues.

 

EVERYONE wants the key issues.

 

 

 

 

[Mokiguy]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:55 PM, Lazyboy said:

Yeah, we already know that. Unfortunately, all this thread has proven is that you are apparently incapable of understanding even this very simple concept.

 

No, this thread has proven a number of different things, mainly that there are many different opinions about what makes a comic valuable. But it's also become evident that some members, perhaps because they don't know enough themselves, for some inexplicable reason believe that their time is better spent analyzing and criticize fellow members of this forum rather than adding to the thread by commenting on the topic,

[Nick Furious]

In addition to scarcity, historical significance is an important component of value.   A baseball is just a baseball until it is hit for a world series winning home run.  Then it contains historical significance.  A gun owned by General Patton is just a gun if owned by someone who's name you don't know.  General Patton added historical significance to the gun by owning it.  Tales to Astonish 13 was just another Tales to Astonish comic until Guardians of the Galaxy.  And then it became the first appearance of Groot...a character of significance, giving the book historical significance.  Historical significance often brings exponential increases in demand.  

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:16 AM, Mokiguy said:

there are many different opinions about what makes a comic valuable

The only thing that makes a comic valuable is demand being higher than supply. Demand may only be higher than perceived supply and there are many different reasons that could cause that demand, but that is it. Period.

Once again, you have failed to understand this very basic concept.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:56 PM, newshane said:

I'd refer you back to my post above. I gave reasons why books are considered important (keys).

No, you gave reasons why books may have more relative demand (and therefore more value), some of which do not make keys. That is relevant to the thread question in that it's not only keys that are worth more than average issues, but the assertion that all those things make keys is incorrect.

Being popular is not important. Don't cut the head off the statue.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth..

Sorry, but with all due respect, you're missing something that I almost thought would go without saying.

A major difference between coin collecting and comic collecting is that all coins of a given type look alike. For instance, you can't tell a common Morgan dollar from a scarce Morgan dollar at a glance without checking the date and the mint mark.

Comic books do not all look alike.

I personally have never bought a book that was "key" because of a first appearance or origin story. I usually buy an issue if I like the cover art for that issue. For instance, I shelled out $1,865 for this Jumbo #42 because I liked the cover art—especially the way the leopard was drawn.

I passed on an equally scarce issue from the same year and in the same grade (the #45 attached below) because I didn't like the cover art on that other issue. Without me as a bidder, it sold for $605—less than a third the price of the other one. Same title, same year, same characters, same cover artist, same grade, same page quality—one third the price. If I were speculating, I would have gone after the #45 instead. That one can probably be flipped for a profit. Because I paid such a strong price, I have little chance of ever breaking even on the #42 that I bought—but I like the artwork on the #42, and I find the artwork on the #45 boring. Have you ever found that a certain work of art "speaks" to you while another doesn't?

Even though they were mass produced, comic books are essentially a form of art. Most comic collectors spend a lot of time looking at their comics and admiring the covers. Looking at the covers provides a type of pleasure that can border on euphoria.

Do most coin collectors spend much time admiring the aesthetics of their coins? Maybe some do. There's an element of art to coins, but, like I said, all coins of a certain type look alike. Personally, I like Morgan dollars better than Peace dollars, for instance, but since Morgan dollars all look the same, I wouldn't have a preference for one date/mint over another. (I dabbled in coins briefly when I was young, but coin collecting didn't grab; me comic collecting did.)

Edited February 13 by jimbo_7071

[newshane]

On 2/10/2024 at 1:36 PM, Lazyboy said:

No, you gave reasons why books may have more relative demand (and therefore more value), some of which do not make keys. That is relevant to the thread question in that it's not only keys that are worth more than average issues, but the assertion that all those things make keys is incorrect.

Being popular is not important. Don't cut the head off the statue.

I gave my definition for keys. 

What is yours? 

[SOTIcollector]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster?

 

My intent was not to put you down, and I understand how it could be taken that way. My sincere apologies.